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Recount

Junebug said:
No one is saying that recounts, standing alone, are bad. I don't know how closely you have been paying attention, but what is happening is that Stein is claiming, *without any evidence whatsoever*, that Russian hackers have infiltrated our voting systems and affected the outcome of the election. That claim, which undeniably has gained traction despite lacking any evidence to support it, undermines the integrity of the process insofar as it lends credence to the idea that the system is tainted despite the fact there is no evidence to think that it was.

It's like saying we should put someone on trial to determine if there is any evidence that they did something illegal. It's totally backward.
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Ok, fine. Two things though, here you have correctly attributed the claim to Stein, but previously you were, I thought, laying blame on Clinton. Clinton declined the opportunity to peruse the recount before Stein jumped on the opportunity. Secondly, I see your point about putting some on trial to see if they did something wrong, fine I get that. But some folks on the other side are thinking, "what's the risk?" It is not like this is a person's life and they are going to go to jail if we find something wrong but didn't have a warrant. It's the voting system and even if there is a small chance it was hacked and manipulate, we should find that error and fix it.
 
birdman said:
Good, this is a start, thanks. So we are worried about observation error e.g., two different observer (i.e., the person reading the ballot) might count the same ballot in different ways and if that happened enough times the election could go one way or another. That is a problem and it certainly could cause issues for the integrity of our voting system, but what came out of that halted 2000 recount was a better way of designing ballots, like no more chads in Florida, and a reduction in the inter-observer error probability, like electronic voting machines. So, the 2000 recount (despite being prematurely halted) was probably a net positive, in my view anyway.
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That isn't all that came out of the Florida recount. You can argue there were process improvements, although I'm sure no system is perfect or foolproof. Anyway, ,any Democrats have been crying for years that the election was stolen. And, frankly, each side can argue with some legitimacy that their guy won Florida - all based on how you want to read a paper ballot (trying to determine a voter's intent when you can't talk to the voter). I'm not sure I see much "positive" in trying to question the outcome when you have tens of thousands of votes that have to be turned a different way in each of these states. That's a lot of guess work - especially when in many places we don't even have paper ballots.
 
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DeacMan said:
That isn't all that came out of the Florida recount. You can argue there were process improvements, although I'm sure no system is perfect or foolproof. Anyway, ,any Democrats have been crying for years that the election was stolen. And, frankly, each side can argue with some legitimacy that their guy won Florida - all based on how you want to read a paper ballot (trying to determine a voter's intent when you can't talk to the voter). I'm not sure I see much "positive" in trying to question the outcome when you have tens of thousands of votes that have to be turned a different way in each of these states. That's a lot of guess work - especially when in many places we don't even have paper ballots.
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I know recount is the technical term, but I think more people want to know if there is a reason for these statistical anomalies within the process. I'm not picturing hundred of people reading ballots for two weeks. More like a thorough review of how the electronic voting machines performed by a few software gurus and some cyber security nerds.
 
How is this a distraction? Trump doesn't have to count the ballots himself. He's only distracted if he wants to tweet about it. Nobody is pacing in their living room waiting for these recount results.
 
I can see why Donald Trump appeals to some people on here, his latest Twitter rant is straight out of the Tunnels playbook. State something ridiculous, claim their is no proof to dispel your claim without providing any proof that it is even true despite it being your claim, then challenge the other party to provide the facts and do the work to prove your statement false.
 
DeacMan said:
I can certainly think of a lot better uses for $6 million USD. Frankly, there are a whole lot of Democrats in DC who also are saying this is a total waste of time.
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Hell that's 2 years rent that the Secret Service could use to PAY Trump to rent 2 floors in Trump Tower, or 6 days of NYC tax payers' money protecting Melania and Barron because they want to stay in NYC not the White House. 6 Mil buys a lot of Secret Service agents' tickets on Trump's 757, which will be PAYED to Trump also btw. I understand every President needs protection and it's tremendously expensive, but most Presidents don't personally benefit financially from that protection.

6 million dollars to check and see if our current electoral process is secure sounds like a bargain.
 
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ONW said:
Hell that's 2 years rent that the Secret Service could use to PAY Trump to rent 2 floors in Trump Tower, or 6 days of NYC tax payers' money protecting Melania and Barron because they want to stay in NYC not the White House. 6 Mil buys a lot of Secret Service agents' tickets on Trump's 757, which will be PAYED to Trump also btw. I understand every President needs protection and it's tremendously expensive, but most Presidents don't personally benefit financially from that protection.
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isn't this just so Barron can finish his year off in school before moving to DC? Seems reasonable.
 
WFcatamount22 said:
isn't this just so Barron can finish his year off in school before moving to DC? Seems reasonable.
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That's the stated reason, although, they've never said they would be moving to the White House until he "finishes school."
 
Junebug said:
By the way, Trump's tweet about millions of fraudulent voters is in the same category as Stein's statements. It's a claim without any evidence that tends to undermine confidence in the system.
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Maybe, but there's a big difference between President Elect Donald Trump saying something and Jill Stein saying something. Nobody listens to Jill Stein. Lots of people (apparently) listen to Trump
 
DeacMan said:
I can certainly think of a lot better uses for $6 million USD. Frankly, there are a whole lot of Democrats in DC who also are saying this is a total waste of time.
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Yep, they should be spending that money trying to win the Louisiana senate seat. Such a waste
 
DeacMan said:
You can't audit the vote and prove anything about illegal votes. It's not like the ballot comes with a questionnaire. Are you (a) a felon, (b) a citizen of another country, (c) under 18 years of age? It's what makes Trump's claim so ridiculous. He can't prove its true and no one can prove its false (even if all of us deep down know it's totally dumb and irrelevant).
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It's almost like we would have to compare voter lists with felony convictions, citizenship applications, birth and death records, etc.
 
Junebug said:
No one is saying that recounts, standing alone, are bad. I don't know how closely you have been paying attention, but what is happening is that Stein is claiming, *without any evidence whatsoever*, that Russian hackers have infiltrated our voting systems and affected the outcome of the election. That claim, which undeniably has gained traction despite lacking any evidence to support it, undermines the integrity of the process insofar as it lends credence to the idea that the system is tainted despite the fact there is no evidence to think that it was.

It's like all of the congressional investigations of Hillary Clinton.
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FIFY
 
Junebug said:
Doubts about the integrity of the electoral process don't help anyone, and they just make it easier for some other buffoon to come along in the future and convince people that the system is "rigged."
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I don't know man, it looked pretty easy this time around.

I'm also glad we are holding two private citizens to the same standard as our president-elect. Do we really have to wait until January to compare Trump to other world leaders or past presidents? I was kind of hoping we could leave the "but Killary..., but Jill Stein..." routine behind sooner than that.
 
WFcatamount22 said:
isn't this just so Barron can finish his year off in school before moving to DC? Seems reasonable.
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I don't remember our last three presidents doing that with their school age daughters.
 
MysteryMen said:
Is Barron special needs in real life? Or is this is a totally out of line special needs joke
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You'll have to forgive him, MM. He's not taking this loss well. I think he's buying into the baseless speculation about the person he doesn't like's child's health.
 
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