Slaughter in vegas

[PhDeac]

Those military style guns of which you speak are, in most cases, basically the same as your (or common) rifles. They just look “scary.” They have the same capabilities, same ballistics, fire the same rounds, etc. That’s exactly what ELC is talking about. It’s fine that you don’t know that, but the condescending drivel is a bad look when you clearly don’t. This, right here, is a reason why progress is so difficult on this front. As Ive said all along, I’m for heavy reform but that’s never going to happen when you’re dealing with clown shoes bullshit like, “BAN ALL THOSE FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC MILITARY ASSAULT GUNS! THE DIPSHIT REDNECKS DONT NEED EM!” Before you call for the outright ban and seizure of someone’s property, insult their intelligence, religion, and way of life, please know what you’re talking about.

Yet we've got people who can't cite a verse in the Koran making policies aimed at banning Muslims from entering the US.

People who have never been poor making policies on poverty.

People who have never been in public schools making public education policy.

And people who know guns still aren't willing to do anything to address gun violence.

 

[DG3]

Yet we've got people who can't cite a verse in the Koran making policies aimed at banning Muslims from entering the US.

People who have never been poor making policies on poverty.

People who have never been in public schools making public education policy.

And people who know guns still aren't willing to do anything to address gun violence.

In a vacuum, these all sound ridiculous and I agree with you. Obviously they all have their own intricacies, but for the sake of the current situation and for this thread, I’ll address your last point. Some of them are the caricature that some here think pretty much all gun enthusiasts are. They are assholes. Others think it’s the big government slippery slope. Some aren’t well enough educated on gun violence. We could go on all night. Still, I think one needs to be educated on a topic before he/she tells others how to live in regards to it.

What I think that we can agree on is that changes need to be made. Serious ones. Admittedly, I don’t know what that looks like or how it will happen, but for it to happen there has to be compromise. For there to be compromise, we have have to be educated on the subject matter as to not invalidate our own arguments. You can’t reach any sort of progress with the “BAN THE MILITARY AUTOMATED ASSAULT WEAPONS!” or the “FUCK YOU COMMIELIB! COME TRY TO TAKE MY GUNS AND I’LL BLOW YOUR HEAD OFF! IT’S MY SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT!” type arguments.

 

[06deacon]

Then knowledgeable gun enthusiasts need to step up and help bridge that gap in the debate instead of siding with the fucking crazies.

 

[DG3]

What do you think I’m trying to do? I’m ready to lay down my weapons and make something work. The lack of education and even lack of wanting to be educated in favor of buzz words, insults, and figurative point scoring isn’t working. The reality is that those entrenched on either side won’t be happy with the changes that will be made, but they will surely beat what we’ve got now and there are 59 families out there tonight that wish they could have come sooner.

 

[elkman92]

Then knowledgeable gun enthusiasts need to step up and help bridge that gap in the debate instead of siding with the fucking crazies.

The problem is the knowledgeable gun enthusiasts are never invited to the debate, we are just told that we are knuckledraggers who should shut the fuck up and do as we are told by people who probably do not know which end of a firearm to hold...

 

[Deacfreak07]

You fucking gun fuckers spend butt fucking ton of money to keep the debate from happening at all. I don't think gun owners are necessarily bad people, but the NRA is an evil organization built to make sure death is profitable with blood all over its hands.

 

[RJKarl]

No, what you do is play circular games of semantics to tell those who support sane laws that don't, in any way, keep people from keeping and bearing arms that they know nothing. It's irrelevant to you that the vast majority of Americans support these actions.

What you care about is carrying water for the gun manufacturers as their front organization, the NRA, does. The Second Amendment is secondary to gun product companies' profits.

 

[DG3]

You fucking gun fuckers spend butt fucking ton of money to keep the debate from happening at all. I don't think gun owners are necessarily bad people, but the NRA is an evil organization built to make sure death is profitable with blood all over its hands.

Your Honor, may I present Exhibit A.

Welcome to the discussion, DF07. I’m certain your rational thoughts here will help move the needle.

 

[06deacon]

The problem is the knowledgeable gun enthusiasts are never invited to the debate, we are just told that we are knuckledraggers who should shut the fuck up and do as we are told by people who probably do not know which end of a firearm to hold...

Great here is elkman, here to tell everyone they're fucking stupid because they're not experts in guns. Oh, sorry, "firearms"

 

[elkman92]

No, what you do is play circular games of semantics to tell those who support sane laws that don't, in any way, keep people from keeping and bearing arms that they know nothing. It's irrelevant to you that the vast majority of Americans support these actions.

What you care about is carrying water for the gun manufacturers as their front organization, the NRA, does. The Second Amendment is secondary to gun product companies' profits.

Funny, those NICS checks say otherwise about the vast majority of Americans. And regarding the NRA, if you really think the five million members of that organization are that powerful, wouldn't unlicensed open carry be fifty state legal by now?

 

[06deacon]

What do you think I’m trying to do? I’m ready to lay down my weapons and make something work. The lack of education and even lack of wanting to be educated in favor of buzz words, insults, and figurative point scoring isn’t working. The reality is that those entrenched on either side won’t be happy with the changes that will be made, but they will surely beat what we’ve got now and there are 59 families out there tonight that wish they could have come sooner.

What level of education do you think folks need to be able to participate in the discussion? Lack of personal education hasn't stopped a lot of our esteemed electorate from bloviating on healthcare reform for instance.

Also I think it's a bit disingenuous to ascribe even partial responsibility for the 59+ deaths to both entrenched sides or whatever. If one of the entrenched sides had their way this wouldn't have happened at all.

 

[elkman92]

Great here is elkman, here to tell everyone they're fucking stupid because they're not experts in guns. Oh, sorry, "firearms"

I just responded to another poster. Would you rather be called "uninformed"?

 

[PhDeac]

The problem is the knowledgeable gun enthusiasts are never invited to the debate, we are just told that we are knuckledraggers who should shut the fuck up and do as we are told by people who probably do not know which end of a firearm to hold...

Then have your own debate. If 2/3 of Republicans could get on board with any plan that would increase gun responsibility, they could easily get enough Dems on board.

Otherwise, it just seems like you're trying to stifle debate because the status quo is just fine.

What's funny about this is that in this debate, the gun advocates are the egghead nerds they hate in every other debate.

 

[MichDeac25]

bump stock should be illegal no question

the problem is, if you make the bump stock illegal, here's the work around: "Gun users can achieve a similar, though less controlled effect by sticking their finger through their belt loop or simply by holding a stick between the trigger and the trigger guard."

so that effectively to make automatic firing weapons unavailable, you need to ban semi-automatic weapons

Fine. I can live with people sticking their finger through their belt loop instead of a damn fully engineered solution to make an automatic weapon. Jesus. This is common sense. There's no reason we can't attempt to make America a little safer. Even incremental improvement is still improvement.

 

[DG3]

What level of education do you think folks need to be able to participate in the discussion? Lack of personal education hasn't stopped a lot of our esteemed electorate from bloviating on healthcare reform for instance.

Also I think it's a bit disingenuous to ascribe even partial responsibility for the 59+ deaths to both entrenched sides or whatever. If one of the entrenched sides had their way this wouldn't have happened at all.

It takes a few hours to read and educate yourself about guns and ammo in their various iterations. It’s not rocket science. By glancing through a few pages here, that’s clearly a lot to ask.

I’m not blaming it on entrenched sides at all. Stop reading and looking for good guys vs bad guys garbage. I’m on your side. I want change. Work with me instead trying to polarize everything. The us vs them attitude will never achieve the change we both want.

 

[RJKarl]

Funny, those NICS checks say otherwise about the vast majority of Americans. And regarding the NRA, if you really think the five million members of that organization are that powerful, wouldn't unlicensed open carry be fifty state legal by now?

The NRA does enough to control the debate and the votes. No one has said the own every vote, but they own enough.

Some states aren't threatened by the NRA and have enough sense not to let inane and insane open carry laws be passed.

 

[PhDeac]

Great Facebook post by a fellow Deac:

"For the record - if I die because some asshat amasses and uses a cache of weapons that no civilian has any logical reason to own, please politicize my death. Politicize the hell out of it. Instantly. Like, before my body is cold. It's not too soon. Pass legislation and name it after me. Politicize my death so that maybe, just maybe, I'll be the last."

 

[elkman92]

Then have your own debate. If 2/3 of Republicans could get on board with any plan that would increase gun responsibility, they could easily get enough Dems on board.

Otherwise, it just seems like you're trying to stifle debate because the status quo is just fine.

What's funny about this is that in this debate, the gun advocates are the egghead nerds they hate in every other debate.

Dems on board? With what?

 

[dartsndeacs]

the whole "you should educate yourself on guns and ammo" talk is really stupid. No, we don't need to. You guys who are experts talk amongst yourselves and get rid of the bad shit. We're on board with whatever you come up with. If you wanna kill a deer and that's your line in the sand, go ahead and kill a deer. Figure out what you need to do that and be safe from someone raping your wife and lets agree on that. Shooting 1,000 rounds a minute is a stupid hobby, as Dan Bilzerian found out this past weekend.

Yes, shooting guns was fun when I was 13. So was wiffle ball. I do neither now.

 

[RJKarl]

bump stock should be illegal no question

the problem is, if you make the bump stock illegal, here's the work around: "Gun users can achieve a similar, though less controlled effect by sticking their finger through their belt loop or simply by holding a stick between the trigger and the trigger guard."

so that effectively to make automatic firing weapons unavailable, you need to ban semi-automatic weapons

Give the manufacturers two choices- redesign the guns so they can't be converted or stop making them. My guess is we'd have new designs within months, if not sooner. I would not be surprised if they exist already.

As I said earlier, make the possession of any kits to change semi to auto a federal crime with serious non-negotiable jail time. Those who produce or create instructions of how to produce those products get double the jail time. Each unit they produce is an additional charge with consecutive sentences.