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Official 2018 NBA Offseason Thread: the preseason cometh

deaconson said:
pre knee injury cp3 is the only one of those that had a chance at staying in front of iverson.
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Neither Steph nor Nash are above average defenders. AI would have been able to get as many as wanted against either of them.
 
Paul has 7 seasons with a higher PER than Iverson’s best. Paul has about 50% more win shares than Iverson. Paul has unquestionably had a better career than Iverson and it’s not close
 
deac29 said:
Paul has 7 seasons with a higher PER than Iverson’s best. Paul has about 50% more win shares than Iverson. Paul has unquestionably had a better career than Iverson and it’s not close
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RE: Win Shares

Peja has more than Zeke, Thurmond, Worthy

Vlade has more than all of those plus Zo, McAdoo, Tiny, Cowens

Horace Grant has more than all of those AI, Clyde Frazier, McHale, Nique, Unseld, Gervin, Baylor

I could do a lot more. It's a terrible pseudo-stat.
 
Make some argument, using any stat you’d like, that indicates Iverson is better than Paul. Points is the only one, but that’s based solely on volume. Paul has a significantly higher FG% and eFG%.
 
AI was MVP. AI carried the second worst modern era finals team to the finals.

I love CP3, but AI could carry a team.

It's very close. I'd definitely put CP3 in over Nash, Miller, Kidd and Allen and not think twice.
 
RJKarl said:
AI was MVP. AI carried the second worst modern era finals team to the finals.

I love CP3, but AI could carry a team.

It's very close. I'd definitely put CP3 in over Nash, Miller, Kidd and Allen and not think twice.
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Paul should have won an MVP. If he played in the garbage east he’d likely have multiple finals appearances. BTW, I’m a Sixers fan. I love AI. But let’s not pretend beating that Bucks team in the ECF and getting stomped by the Lakers was some great accomplishment.
 
I like Chris more than AI. Of course the absolute travesty was not having Pistol on the list.
 
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deac29 said:
Paul should have won an MVP. If he played in the garbage east he’d likely have multiple finals appearances. BTW, I’m a Sixers fan. I love AI. But let’s not pretend beating that Bucks team in the ECF and getting stomped by the Lakers was some great accomplishment.
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He would've won two if not for his two best seasons coming during Kobe's career achievement award (which should have come the year of Nash's second one if I recall) and the best statistical season of Lebron's career.
 
Just to put this to bed once and for all:

Stats RJ understands

10th all time in total assists (will easily finish top 5), 3rd in APG
16th all time in total steals (will probably finish top 5), 6th in SPG
3rd all time in assist to turnover ratio (behind Muggsy and John Paxson)

Stats RJ has heard of

6th all time in career PER (25.7)
24th all time in Win Shares (154)
3rd all time in Win Shares per 48 minutes (.2502)

3rd all time in Box Plus Minus (7.56)

Advanced Stats

17th in career VORP (Lebron is already 1st btw).
2nd in career Assist %
9th in career Steal %
1st in Offensive Rating

Playoffs

5th in career PER
60th in WS
5th in WS/48
3rd in BPM
33rd in VORP

Note that WS and VORP are cumulative so Paul's lack of games in the playoffs hurts him.

Awards

28th in MVP award shares
9x All-Star (T40)
4x 1st team All NBA (T26)
8 All NBA teams total
9x All Defense (7 first teams)

Elite Seasons: 6

Minimum PER: 24.0, WS: 12.5, BPM: 5.4, VORP: 5.2. (Cutoffs were based on top 300 all time for each metric, so a top 5-7 player on average)

Out of 121 such seasons since 1974, only Lebron, MJ, David Robinson, and Karl Malone have more.

All Time Seasons: 2

Minimum: PER: 28.2 , WS: 17.5, BPM: 8.5 , VORP: 8 (cutoffs based on top 50 in each category)

Out of 16 such seasons since 73-74, only Lebron and Jordan have more.



I could honestly keep going. Paul's statistical case as a top 10 player all time is pretty much unassailable, and that includes his playoff statistics. Dock him as much as you like for not translating those stats into championships all you want (and I do dock him some) but at least be honest about it.
 
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Collins playing really well in his second game so far. Nice dunk on an alley oop, a couple of blocks, and played fairly solid defense on Dwight Howard considering he's about 3 inches and 60 lbs smaller.
 
RChildress107 said:
Just to put this to bed once and for all:

Stats RJ understands

10th all time in total assists (will easily finish top 5), 3rd in APG
16th all time in total steals (will probably finish top 5), 6th in SPG
3rd all time in assist to turnover ratio (behind Muggsy and John Paxson)

Stats RJ has heard of

6th all time in career PER (25.7)
24th all time in Win Shares (154)
3rd all time in Win Shares per 48 minutes (.2502)

3rd all time in Box Plus Minus (7.56)

Advanced Stats

17th in career VORP (Lebron is already 1st btw).
2nd in career Assist %
9th in career Steal %
1st in Offensive Rating

Playoffs

5th in career PER
60th in WS
5th in WS/48
3rd in BPM
33rd in VORP

Note that WS and VORP are cumulative so Paul's lack of games in the playoffs hurts him.

Awards

28th in MVP award shares
9x All-Star (T40)
4x 1st team All NBA (T26)
8 All NBA teams total
9x All Defense (7 first teams)

Elite Seasons: 6

Minimum PER: 24.0, WS: 12.5, BPM: 5.4, VORP: 5.2. (Cutoffs were based on top 300 all time for each metric, so a top 5-7 player on average)

Out of 121 such seasons since 1974, only Lebron, MJ, David Robinson, and Karl Malone have more.

All Time Seasons: 2

Minimum: PER: 28.2 , WS: 17.5, BPM: 8.5 , VORP: 8 (cutoffs based on top 50 in each category)

Out of 16 such seasons since 73-74, only Lebron and Jordan have more.



I could honestly keep going. Paul's statistical case as a top 10 player all time is pretty much unassailable, and that includes his playoff statistics. Dock him as much as you like for not translating those stats into championships all you want (and I do dock him some) but at least be honest about it.
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There is no reason to start out with snarky insults. But that's all you ever have.

I love CP3 but to say this is insane, "Paul's statistical case as a top 10 player all time is pretty much unassailable, and that includes his playoff statistics."

He can't sniff the jocks of:

Wilt
MJ
Magic
Bird
Oscar
West
Tim
Kobe
B. Russell
Kareem
Baylor
Barry
Durant
Doc

That's a start. CP3 is Top 30-40 somewhere.
 
RJKarl said:
There is no reason to start out with snarky insults. But that's all you ever have.

I love CP3 but to say this is insane, "Paul's statistical case as a top 10 player all time is pretty much unassailable, and that includes his playoff statistics."

He can't sniff the jocks of:

Wilt
MJ
Magic
Bird
Oscar
West
Tim
Kobe
B. Russell
Kareem
Baylor
Barry
Durant
Doc

That's a start. CP3 is Top 30-40 somewhere.
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Thanks for proving my snarky insult. He's 6th or better in the three main per minute advanced stats designed to rate overall performance. He's 17th overall in the best cumulative stat that rates overall performance (VORP) and will conservatively finish his career 8th between Kareem and David Robinson.

I don't have Chris rated above any of those guys except probably Barry. I'd probably slot him in the 18-22 range but would have to take a closer look. You can't be a top 10 player without a ring.
 
Getting back to actual games played,

Crazy stat from Sixers game. Joel Embiid: 0-6 three point shots. Don't know which is crazier. Having a 7 foot center taking that many threes or missing all of them. He had the second most attempts, behind only JJ Redick.
 
Paul is an odd case. He's got tremendous advanced stats, but his teams have never been nearly as good as you'd expect from someone with those stats - either in the regular season or the playoffs (the lack of success for his teams in the regular season is more damning, imo). He feels a bit like Wisconsin in KenPoms system - an outlier due to the nearly perfect overlap of his playing style with the the statistical model that ends up substantially overrating him. Some of it is durability too - he's averaged less than 70 games a season over his entire career, which hurts his teams as he's not on the floor and shows up in the W/L records.

He's a clear first ballot Hall of Fame player and one of the best of his generation. He's not a historically great player.
 
I'd argue that CP has elevated his teammates and coaches.
 
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