• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Danny Manning Credibility Watch

RChildress107 said:
What evidence do we have of how Manning will handle a team that is vastly underperforming its talent through 5 games of a season? And how is his handling of that situation relevant to how he will perform with what will be the most talented team we have had on paper since 08-09?
Click to expand...

The evidence I am referencing is what he has done with three Wake Forest teams already, which I would note is not an extraordinary sample size by any means.

I can't really argue with the propositions that you are throwing out because you believe they are an aberration. I stated that they fall well within the realm of what we have come to expect from Danny Manning led Wake Forest defenses, and that ultimately we will see how it goes.

I do not believe these defensive performances are good in the least and that it is a bad defensive team. You believe they are aberrations based on what? Hope? I am basing it on the only evidence that we have---results from Manning at Wake, and the performances that we have seen so far this year.

There are a lot of holes in this team. It has more talent than it did 4 years ago for sure, but anytime our guards can't stay in front of pretty much any other point guard from a lowly mid-major there are a lot of questions to be asked.
 
birdman said:
College athletics is all about marketing the school to new students and pride for existing students and Alumni. So, when your school loses to a wildly substandard opponents it is a matter of pride not a matter of statistics and defensive efficiency. When you lose 4 out of 5 games to wildly substandard opponents, what pride is left? Of course the fan base is upset and some of them are even calling for firing the coach, because our pride is hurt and we are embarrassed. How the fuck am I supposed to talk sports with my asshole, Duke-alumni, brother-in-law on Thursday? "Well, sure Mike, we lost to Drake, but our defensive ratings aren't as bad as they were under [Redacted], and one our top players left school early to go pro in Greece, so I'm not all that embarrassed."
Click to expand...

1. Don’t talk to Duke alums, ever.

2. Of course you/we are fucking embarrassed. I’m pissed off at how the first 5 games have gone. I’m pissed at Manning, I’m pissed at his staff, I’m pissed at Crawford, and at the team in general.

So in my hypothetical violation of #1, I would admit that we suck, but when the Duke Alum finally pulled his head out of his ass and asked me whether Manning can fix it (I don’t know, I haven’t seen anything to suggest he can’t) and if I think we should fire Manning (a resounding no for reasons already stated) I would set aside my embarrassment and anger and answer the question like a rational human being.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
The evidence I am referencing is what he has done with three Wake Forest teams already, which I would note is not an extraordinary sample size by any means.

I can't really argue with the propositions that you are throwing out because you believe they are an aberration. I stated that they fall well within the realm of what we have come to expect from Danny Manning led Wake Forest defenses, and that ultimately we will see how it goes.

I do not believe these defensive performances are good in the least and that it is a bad defensive team. You believe they are aberrations based on what? Hope? I am basing it on the only evidence that we have---results from Manning at Wake, and the performances that we have seen so far this year.

There are a lot of holes in this team. It has more talent than it did 4 years ago for sure, but anytime our guards can't stay in front of pretty much any other point guard from a lowly mid-major there are a lot of questions to be asked.
Click to expand...

Oh I didn’t realize you were still taking about the defense. I was talking about turning it around in general.
 
guitardeac said:
I am guessing that the difference in what we think Danny should do lineup wise and what Danny is doing with the lineups is because Manning is at every practice. I think that just stands to reason. Danny isn't coaching based on what he sees in games but rather what he sees in practice plus what he sees in games. Our bigs must be an absolute mess (especially defensively) in practice.
Click to expand...

But we also know Manning has a much higher standard for his bigs than his guards.

Also in practice, the four guard lineup goes up against walk-on guards and/or forwards.
 
RChildress107 said:
Oh I didn’t realize you were still taking about the defense. I was talking about turning it around in general.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. I agree with you on that. I don't think we will continue to lose to sub 200 teams (primarily because we play only one more this season).
 
Deacsfan27 said:
Right, but none of those things indicate why we are getting dominated inside by guys who are 6-7 and play for Liberty and Drake. I buy what you're selling for ACC and "real" competition.
Click to expand...

The Drake front court made 3 inside buckets and shot 25% combined. Doral was 7 for 9. Liberty was "better" but still had a starting forward score 0 points and none of their bigs reached double digits. Doral was 7 for 8.

Doral laying an egg in our opener is clouding the history here I think... The story of the year so far is simply that our guards don't stop anyone. At all. That plus we don't have a natural rebounder on the team. If Moore and Thompson outscore the opposing front court by 15 or 20 but our starting guards give up 49 to two nobodies and we toss in an 0/7 or 1/8 from a guard that also doesn't play any defense, we can lose to absolutely anyone. Moore is shooting like 90% from the floor with almost 40 boards in the last 4. We need more from Sarr and we certainly need Moore to keep progressing, but outside of Ga Southern he's not the problem.

I'd still love to know what Woods could be fighting with Manning about. They're not playing some kind of crazy zone defense or pulling unfair matchups against mediocre teams. It's just man and it's Drake. Fucking stop somebody. My biggest problem with Manning at this point is that he leaves guys on the floor after they sleepwalk through a defensive possession.
 
I agree with you DC. I wrote a 2,000 word article last week that was predicated on the guards not being able to keep literally anybody in front of them. It causes other guys to have to help, which causes "help the helpers", which causes Moore/Thompson to have to move away from the basket, which allows offensive rebounds when a shot is missed. It all starts with Crawford, Woods, Wilbekin, and Childress all failing to stop anybody they are guarding so far this season.

When I was referencing "dominated inside" I just meant that as not being able to grab rebounds (poor phrasing on my part).

Moore has done well overall when he can avoid foul trouble. I mean he put up 17 and 17 on Friday night. Against Liberty we let some 6-7 guy grab 14 rebounds in 22 minutes. That's completely and utterly unacceptable. Box out and just jump and grab the ball. We have 5 guys over 6-7 who play minutes.
 
PhDeac said:
But we also know Manning has a much higher standard for his bigs than his guards.

Also in practice, the four guard lineup goes up against walk-on guards and/or forwards.
Click to expand...

Outside of practice, the results in games have not supported that the small lineup makes sense: the 4 guard lineup is getting crushed on the offensive boards (WF is #292 in preventing offensive rebounds) and our small guards fail to defend the 3 (#301 in 2 point defense - 41%) against a slate of teams that aren't big and aren't great offensively. WF should've been able to throw out any 5 scholarship players on its roster, and do better than 1-4 against Drake, Liberty, GA Southern, Quinnipiac and Houston. It's the failure to adjust when they selected lineups have repeatedly failed that is red flag.

Just have a hard time accepting the assumption that as bad as the current rotation has played the results would have been worse had Manning not chosen to play small ball over the past 5 games.
 
DCDeac said:
The Drake front court made 3 inside buckets and shot 25% combined. Doral was 7 for 9. Liberty was "better" but still had a starting forward score 0 points and none of their bigs reached double digits. Doral was 7 for 8.

Doral laying an egg in our opener is clouding the history here I think... The story of the year so far is simply that our guards don't stop anyone. At all. That plus we don't have a natural rebounder on the team. If Moore and Thompson outscore the opposing front court by 15 or 20 but our starting guards give up 49 to two nobodies and we toss in an 0/7 or 1/8 from a guard that also doesn't play any defense, we can lose to absolutely anyone. Moore is shooting like 90% from the floor with almost 40 boards in the last 4. We need more from Sarr and we certainly need Moore to keep progressing, but outside of Ga Southern he's not the problem.

I'd still love to know what Woods could be fighting with Manning about. They're not playing some kind of crazy zone defense or pulling unfair matchups against mediocre teams. It's just man and it's Drake. Fucking stop somebody. My biggest problem with Manning at this point is that he leaves guys on the floor after they sleepwalk through a defensive possession.
Click to expand...


If you want to cite evidence that Manning isn’t the guy, or is unlikely to be the guy, this is it. It was maybe excusable to leave guys in even after they took plays off because they were producing on a top 10 offense. That excuse won’t fly this year. I wasn’t able to watch the tournament so I’ll defer to those that did on how Manning handled these defensive lapses.

I will agree that our defense being this bad is a coaching issue. We might have enough defensive talent next year to cover up that issue, but I agree that it’s there.
 
RChildress107 said:
[/B]

If you want to cite evidence that Manning isn’t the guy, or is unlikely to be the guy, this is it. It was maybe excusable to leave guys in even after they took plays off because they were producing on a top 10 offense. That excuse won’t fly this year. I wasn’t able to watch the tournament so I’ll defer to those that did on how Manning handled these defensive lapses.

I will agree that our defense being this bad is a coaching issue. We might have enough defensive talent next year to cover up that issue, but I agree that it’s there.
Click to expand...

At the same time, this plays into the idea that folks are overreacting to a small sample set. Manning did bench Woods, has gone with a variety of lineups combining our most experienced guards, and yeah it's been a complete debacle so far. Our only win had tons of minutes for Melo, Sarr, and Mitchell. Then he gave Mitchell and Sarr another combined 20 minutes against Houston and they combined for 1 field goal and 4 boards. Mitchell went from 3.5 minutes per game in our first 3 to 18 minutes per game in our last 2.

Game to game it's nearly impossible to judge whether these moves are the right ones. When those guys don't play all that well fans barely even notice that kind of shakeup. Our best starting 5 could very well be Crawford/Brown/Mitchell/Thompson/Moore in a month. I can't say I'd trash him for not going to that right off the bat, or even after 2 awful losses.

Plus if that's the case, Wilbekin is a senior with basically no role on the team. Depth would be:

Crawford/Childress
Brown/Woods
Donovan/Melo
Some grouping of Thompson/Moore/Sarr/Okeke/SJM

And we'd probably still suck.
 
Not a big Thompson fan. I think Sarr and D-Mitch need to get most of those minutes. TT has hit the ceiling and isn't going to get any better.
 
RChildress107 said:
And I hate to break it to all of you but UVA and WSU’s success had far more to do with Malcolm Brogdon, Justin Anderson, Joe Harris, Ron Baker, Fred Van Vleet, and Cleanthony Early than it did Bennett or Marshall’s defensive system.
Click to expand...

So a handful of average to below average NBA players are why UVA and WSU have had elite defenses collectively for like 15 years? None of who were there last year when both teams had top 15 squads?

I get that talent is king but also think there are some true outlier coaches (Bennett and GM among them) that are going to get results with you and RJ as the starting backcourt.
 
Pilchard said:
Using the lineups played so far, WF is 128th in the country and 13th (out of 15) in the ACC in average height (i.e., the height of the players that see time on the floor). WF is 15th and 2nd in the ACC in average height at the 5 spot where Doral Moore at 7-1 and Olivier Sarr at 7-0 have played 70% of the minutes. It's at the other 4 spots on the lineup where WF lacks size compared to almost everyone in the country.

According to KP, this is how WF has broken down the minutes at the 5 spots on the floor:

1: Brandon Chilldress (6-0) 62%; Bryant Crawford (6-3) 37%
2: Mitchell Wilbekin (6-2 - which is generous) 51%; Bryant Crawford 27%; Key Woods (6-3) 18%
3: Key Woods 39%; Chaundee Brown (6-5) 34%; Bryant Crawford 18%; Melo Egg (6-8) 9%
4: Terrence Thompson (6-7) 39%: Chaundee 30%; Donovan Mitchell (6-8) 19% and I love this one Key Woods 10%

So, more than half the time, WF has played a 6-0 PG; a 6-2 SG; 6-3 (Woods or Crawford) SF, and 6-7 or shorter PF. In major college basketball, WF is very small at 4 of the 5 spots on the floor the vast majority of the time, meaning WF will get routinely out-rebounded and WF will be easy to score inside against. Understand that the guards have the most ability to generate offense, but the small lineup is just a massive liability on the defensive end of the floor. Really would like to see WF try to play Moore and Sarr together.
Click to expand...

Pretty obvious that SF/PF is where we are not maximizing our potential. We are particularly screwed when Brown subs out at SF, because he is always replaced by a small guard. Seems to me that Melo/Mitchell can back of the SF position, particularly when we have Crawford or Childress in game to handle the ball. Both have length, seem to move reasonably well on defense, and are more comfortable on perimeter than down low. Between TT, Mitchell, and Sarr we ought to have good size at PF at all times.
 
bmoneydeac said:
So a handful of average to below average NBA players are why UVA and WSU have had elite defenses collectively for like 15 years? None of who were there last year when both teams had top 15 squads?

I get that talent is king but also think there are some true outlier coaches (Bennett and GM among them) that are going to get results with you and RJ as the starting backcourt.
Click to expand...

15 pounds ago
 
bmoneydeac said:
So a handful of average to below average NBA players are why UVA and WSU have had elite defenses collectively for like 15 years? None of who were there last year when both teams had top 15 squads?

I get that talent is king but also think there are some true outlier coaches (Bennett and GM among them) that are going to get results with you and RJ as the starting backcourt.
Click to expand...

Who gives a shit if they have elite defenses? Their peak as elite teams came when they had NBA talent. So even the Unicorn coaches need talent to succeed and talent can succeed without a unicorn coach.

It’s way more likely that Manning can compete for a championship through sheer accumulation of talent, even if he is otherwise a mediocre coach, than it is that Wake will correctly identify and hire the next unicorn coach that can install the perfect system that will lead us to a championship (how many have Bennett and Marshall won again?).

Y’all are sounding like State fans right now.
 
wfupdx said:
Pretty obvious that SF/PF is where we are not maximizing our potential. We are particularly screwed when Brown subs out at SF, because he is always replaced by a small guard. Seems to me that Melo/Mitchell can back of the SF position, particularly when we have Crawford or Childress in game to handle the ball. Both have length, seem to move reasonably well on defense, and are more comfortable on perimeter than down low. Between TT, Mitchell, and Sarr we ought to have good size at PF at all times.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. If Manning wants to return the program to the trajectory it was on before this 5 game stretch it seems like he needs to find a 3/4 that can contribute right away. Two would be great.
 
RChildress107 said:
Hmmm. If Manning wants to return the program to the trajectory it was on before this 5 game stretch it seems like he needs to find a 3/4 that can contribute right away. Two would be great.
Click to expand...
Defense? We can't put the ball in the basket.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top