• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

SCOTUS decisions

To put it more simply for you Junebug: do you think our federal courts operate more like our state courts, and the English courts they were founded on, or like modern day courts in Austria?

While I know it can be difficult to look beyond the obvious distinction between common law and statutory law, the main principle that governs all American courts is stare decisis. That’s true whether it’s a state court examining a statute, a federal court examining a statute, a state court examining a common law question, or a federal court examining a common law question. The case will almost always come down to the majority’s interpretation of what other judges have said before them.

Scalia’s assertion that:

“A State might choose to prohibit only that obscenity which is the most patently offensive in its pruriencei. e., that which involves the most lascivious displays of sexual activity. But it may not prohibit, for example, only that obscenity which includes offensive political messages. And the Federal Government can criminalize only those threats of violence that are directed against the President -since the reasons why threats of violence are outside the First Amendment (protecting individuals from the fear of violence, from the disruption that fear engenders, and from the possibility that the threatened violence will occur) have special force when applied to the person of the President.”

has little, if anything, to do with the words of the first amendment, and everything to do with his interpretation of what other judges have said about the first amendment (or really what other judges have said about what other judges have said about what other judges have said . . . about the first amendment).
 
Junebug what about the fundamental right to marry? Do you reject that as a concept since it came about through substantive due process?
 
FWIW, Judge Posner's decision striking down the Indiana and Wisconsin gay marriage bans is about 1000 times better than Kennedy's opinion in Obergefell. https://www.scribd.com/document/238679338/7th-Circuit-Same-Sex-Marriage Posner demolished every argument put forward by the states and rested his decision squarely on equal protection grounds. It's awfully hard to refute. Obergefell is not nearly as rigorous in my opinion. I wish Posner had made it to SCOTUS, he would have pissed off both parties just like Kennedy but he would have left us with a great legacy of opinions.
 
FWIW, Judge Posner's decision striking down the Indiana and Wisconsin gay marriage bans is about 1000 times better than Kennedy's opinion in Obergefell. https://www.scribd.com/document/238679338/7th-Circuit-Same-Sex-Marriage Posner demolished every argument put forward by the states and rested his decision squarely on equal protection grounds. It's awfully hard to refute. Obergefell is not nearly as rigorous in my opinion. I wish Posner had made it to SCOTUS, he would have pissed off both parties just like Kennedy but he would have left us with a great legacy of opinions.

Posner is the best.
 
Speaking of "looking pretty stupid", where is Junebug on the question posed?
 
 
Federal courts also seemed different from common law courts when I was clerking for a federal appellate judge, but maybe I was missing something.

And correcting the error of my 1L way of thinking took longer than a day, but you hit the nail on the head by describing it as magical

I imagine that was a pretty easy clerkship if your judge only had you look at the text of the statute at hand. Those “Erie guess” cases must have been a drag for you.
 
I like how in junebug’s reality all that has to happen to affirm rights to a disenfranchised class is to vote on it because judges just interpret the law and don’t make it. Then you point towards states would still have laws on the books to disenfranchise black people, hell Mississippi might still want slavery if you always left it up to voters. Junebug then combats this “nonsense” with the 14th amendment, see there is a law but it’s very narrow and can’t be applied to things like gay marriage because that wasn’t what it was put in there for and moves on nevermind the history of that law because in fantasy world we ignore the crazy destructive war that had to result first in that law. Then people point out conservative activist rulings but those too are ignored because in conservative fantasy world those for some reason don’t fit his argument it’s only those damn liberal activist. The argument he is making is pretty much the perfect insight into the conservative mind, blatant hypocrisy while arguing for something conservatives themselves are doing but can’t be acknowledge in fantasy world.
 
“Junebug’s world” is rich white guys who have little interest in the rights of others. And that was the “world” in which the Constitution was first written as well. That’s why the idea of “original intent” is so appealing.

In Junebug’s world, the law can claim “all men are created equal” while denying basic rights to all but a protected class.

I got through a few paragraphs of Roberts’ dissent. It basically boils down to him complaining that some people like gay marriage so they say the Constitution allows it but he doesn’t like gay marriage so he says it doesn’t.
 
I’m not because I’m not going to waste my time. Perhaps post a reasonable summary.

But here’s a question. What are some policies you support but you know they’re unconstitutional?
 
If you aren’t wasting your time, I’m not either.

Good day.

It’s an unwritten rule of the boards that if you want someone to read something, you post a link and a brief excerpt. It’s rude to demand somebody read a long source.
 
Conservatives do not hate the 14th Amendement. They hate the fact that it has become a repository for the rights that liberal justices want to create.

It isn't liberal judges "creating rights", it's the 14th Amendment that provides those rights. In fact, you could easily argue that when it concerns the 14th, it's liberal judges who are sticking to a literal interpretation of the wording, and it's conservatives who want to interpret it to mean something else. You're also dead wrong about conservatives not hating the 14th. Without it, we probably wouldn't have women voting, many civil rights rulings (including Brown) wouldn't exist, and gay marriage wouldn't exist. In other words, a social conservative utopia, and a nightmare for just about everyone else.
 
I like the fact that people are referring to “Junebug’s reality” and “Junebug’s world“ as if I had expressed an original thought in this thread.

Related, with Kavanaugh’s arrival on the Court, Junebug’s world is getting ready to be yours too. It’s probably best to just get used to it.

As I mentioned earlier, you're profoundly naive if you don't think "Junebug's world" and "Kavanaugh's world" isn't going to generate an even uglier and more massive backlash than what we're experiencing now. If you think that minorities and white liberals are just going to sit by while right-wing, white male justices overturn decades of landmark progressive rulings and throw equal rights for various groups back to the states (or "people", as you inaccurately keep saying) you (and guys like Kavanaugh) are going to be very surprised.
 
I don’t think they’ll be surprised. They’ve been interpreting the 4th Amendment in expectation of it.
 
Three points:

1. Again, it’s original “meaning,” not original “intent.” I don’t get why this is so hard to grasp, unless, of course you are just trying to score points.

2. The theory of original meaning is not limited to the time of the founding. The theory looks at the oringinal meaning at the time of the enactment of the provision in question. Thus, the 14th Amendment is interpreted according the meaning of its words post-civil war.

3. It would wrong to suggest that the framers of the 14th Amendment had little regard for the rights of others. I’m not a historian, but I think that was kind of the point.

So, you admit that you interpret the 14th Amendment, but you're only going to interpret it to mean black males? What about the wording of, you know, the actual amendment? It doesn't say just "black males", but "all persons born or naturalized."
 
This is why when poster Y says “poster X thinks Z” you shouldn’t put too much stock into it. RChill and Ph like to do this, but if you want to know what I think about something, I’d suggest you read what I post, not them.

So, how does the 14th - using your views of the Constitution - protect the rights of marginalized groups? I'm basing what I said in my previous post on what you wrote : "the theory of original meaning is not limited to the time of the founding. The theory looks at the oringinal meaning at the time of the enactment of the provision in question. Thus, the 14th Amendment is interpreted according the meaning of its words post-civil war." Using your wording, it does sound as if you mean the 14th should be limited to protecting the rights of black males, as that was the case post-civil war. What do you mean by that, especially given your statement above that it can protect the rights of groups other than African-Americans? Also, again, how should the 14th be used to protect the rights of marginalized groups under your view of the Constitution?
 
Exactly. There is perhaps no better example of the apolitical nature of originalism/textualism than Scalia’s search and seizure jurisprudence.

LOL. Completely missed the point. Conservatives are all got empowering government to brutalize citizens in anticipation of an uprising.

This is why when poster Y says “the Constitution thinks Z” you shouldn’t put too much stock into it. Junebug likes to do this, but if you want to know what The Constitution thinks about something, I’d suggest you read the Constitution, not Junebug.

Fixed for accuracy.

Highland nails it. I don’t see how you can read the 14th Amendment for meaning and then say it only means certain rights for certain groups.
 
Back
Top