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SCOTUS decisions

OK, I'm going to try to be a textualist for a moment (then immediately take a shower). All together, let's read and analyze the text of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. For purposes of consistency with this thread, we will analyze its text as it pertains to gay marriage. Buckle in, this should be fun.

AMENDMENT XIV

Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

First, let's start with the very first sentence, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside." The text very clearly states that the Amendment applies to all persons, which includes gays and lesbians. The gays have standing. Good start.

Next, the first clause of the second sentence: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States . . ." Let's break this down using very small sections. "No state" clearly refers to the 50 states that comprise the United States of America. From the Redwood forest to the gulf stream waters, the Fourteenth Amendment applies to you, and it's about to tell you what you cannot do. Next, we look at the command of this section: ". . . shall make or enforce any law . . ." If we look at the text of this section, there are a lot of words with very clear meanings. "Make" means to create or construct; "enforce" means to compel observance of or compliance with. Seems pretty straightforward. And most clear of all, "any law" means exactly what it says, I don't think we need to break out our canons of construction for that section. So far, we have figured out that none of the 50 states shall create, construct, or compel compliance with any laws. Wait, shit, we need more. On to the last part of this section! What laws can the states not make? Laws "which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." OK, a lot to unpack here, let's move it to a new paragraph.

"Abridge" means to curtail, but that may be too big a word for some of our conservative counterparts, so what does curtail mean? To "impose a restriction on," much easier to understand. So states shall not make laws that impose a restriction on, "the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." Great, but what constitutes a privilege or immunity? If we look to Black's Law Dictionary, we find the following definition:

A particular and peculiar benefit or advantage enjoyed by a person, company, or class, beyond the common advantages of other citizens.

Hmm. I think you could make a pretty good case that there are particular and peculiar benefits enjoyed by heterosexuals beyond the common advantages of other citizens (in this case, homosexuals). There are a number of particular benefits afforded to those that are married. Tax benefits, spousal benefits, general social welfare, the list goes on and on, and that list, should we take Junebug's approach to the Fourteenth Amendment, applies only to heterosexuals. But isn't that what the Fourteenth Amendment is supposed to protect against? I would argue it does, but, for the moment (and because there's a better argument to come, stay tuned!), let's give that one to our conservative friends. On to the next clause!

The second clause reads: "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. . ." A very noble sentiment, one that our great Constitution was written to promote, and one that doesn't need stringent textual analysis to understand. Again, this isn't the most helpful to our cause, though there is another good argument to be made that laws banning gays from marriage deprives them of liberty (and possibly property). Still, this clause is just another appetizer. We saved the best for last!

Our last clause of Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment states: "nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE! [insert jimcarreyliarliar.gif here] Remember, we are still referring to "No state," so everyone is covered here. What can no state do? Deny (4-letter word, short enough for conservative minds to understand) to any person (including gays) within its jurisdiction (which means anyone who is a resident of a state) the equal protection of the laws. Now, that last part seems to be a bit of a bugaboo for our conservative pals, so let's do one final analysis to really hammer home the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment.

"Equal" means "like in quality, nature, or status; like for each member of a group, class, or society; regarding or affecting all objects in the same way" (it also means the worst tea sweetner in the known universe, but again, I digress). Equal means what we think it means, that everyone gets the same treatment no matter if they are black, white, orange (shoutout to President Cheeto), gay, straight, bi, trans, rich, poor, a Duke fan, etc. "Protection" means "to cover or shield from exposure, injury, damage, or destruction." I'd like to emphasize the use of injury in that definition, as injury has legal consequence as a term, especially regarding laws created to discriminate against a particular class of individuals.

So, we have a clause that essentially means that no state can deny any of its citizens a shield from injury under the laws of that state, and that shield must be afforded to all citizens in the same way. If I've done my textualism right, and I'm fairly certain I have, that means that laws that injure certain classes of people (like, let's just throw out a random example, barring gays from marrying for no reason) run afoul of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Look, Junebug, I know it really sucks that women and blacks and gays and Muslims and immigrants and poor people and many more groups of people that you treat with utter disdain get to benefit from the laws of the United States. And I know it really, REALLY sucks that you can't then create laws to take away those benefits. But until we repeal the Fourteenth Amendment, it is what it is, and hopefully we all have a better appreciation for the Amendment now.
 
Exactly. There is perhaps no better example of the apolitical nature of originalism/textualism than Scalia’s search and seizure jurisprudence.

So, the conservatives who have disagreed with him in those opinions were being political?
 
Not necessarily.

The point is that a justice who votes against his own policy preferences because the vote is dictated by his judicial method is voting for apolitical reasons.

It is so adorable that you think this is true.
 
Wow, you really wasted a lot of time with that post.

Equal protection requires only that likes be treated alike and, as a historical matter, marriage has been defined as a union of one man and one woman for millennia, including at the time of the adoption of the 14th Amendment.

Just using your own method of interpreting statutes on the Fourteenth Amendment. Textualism isn't supposed to use outside sources like social norms, so I didn't use it. I just looked at the language of the statute. I'm sorry that you didn't find my analysis helpful.

Lol

You can somehow find the time in your busy day to read a 1L’s drivel on a message board, but you can’t be bothered to read the Chief Justice’s dissent, which was only marginally longer.

I guess it’s important not to be exposed to any views contrary to your own, particularly those of a legal giant, lest you run the risk of persuasion.

I'm a 3L, bro. Put some respect on my name.
 
Also, because I'm in the defining mood today:

drivel /ˈdrivəl/ (noun): silly nonsense.

Well shit, you've got me there.
 
I'd point out that a statute is any law that is passed by a legislative body and the Fourteenth Amendment is a law that was passed by Congress (which used to be a legislative body), but you'd probably semantic your way out of that one too.
 
Also, you should really capitalize Constitution. Considering everything that matters in your worldview derives itself from that written work, you should show it the proper amount of respect.
 
Just using your own method of interpreting statutes on the Fourteenth Amendment. Textualism isn't supposed to use outside sources like social norms, so I didn't use it. I just looked at the language of the statute. I'm sorry that you didn't find my analysis helpful.



I'm a 3L, bro. Put some respect on my name.

Arsenio had his moments in the sun in the late 80s- early90s. He got Clinton to play the sax on national TV. I guess that earns some respect for the name.
 
Lol

You can somehow find the time in your busy day to read a 1L’s drivel on a message board, but you can’t be bothered to read the Chief Justice’s dissent, which was only marginally longer.

I guess it’s important not to be exposed to any views contrary to your own, particularly those of a legal giant, lest you run the risk of persuasion.

Junebug, I'm not going to let you do to math what you're doing to the Constitution. Just because you want to believe something, it doesn't make it true.

Tortuga's post was 1040 words. Your repost of Justice Roberts was 7950 words. That's not "marginally longer" by any definition. I think you need to ask yourself hard questions when basic addition doesn't fit in your reality.
 
Not necessarily.

The point is that a justice who votes against his own policy preferences because the vote is dictated by his judicial method is voting for apolitical reasons.

Not necessarily? You’re a smart guy, but your analysis on this thread has been anything but objective.

Scalia is one of my favorite justices. His jurisprudence in regard to the 4th and 6th amendment will be taught for centuries. But, he sold his soul in Heller and Citizens United.

And, Thomas and Alito are fantastically political. I highly doubt they’ve voted against their political preferences very often.
 
It isn't liberal judges "creating rights", it's the 14th Amendment that provides those rights. In fact, you could easily argue that when it concerns the 14th, it's liberal judges who are sticking to a literal interpretation of the wording, and it's conservatives who want to interpret it to mean something else. You're also dead wrong about conservatives not hating the 14th. Without it, we probably wouldn't have women voting, many civil rights rulings (including Brown) wouldn't exist, and gay marriage wouldn't exist. In other words, a social conservative utopia, and a nightmare for just about everyone else.

TITCR
 
Statutory interpretation =/= constitutional interpretation

They are obviously similar, but pretty much everyone agrees that different rules of interpretation apply.

Also, it’s just wrong to claim that textualism “isn’t supposed to use outside sources.” Read a few Scalia/Thomas opinions/dissents in constitutional cases. They make extensive use of outside sources. It’s the best way to determine original meaning.

Just remember class: when trying to determine the original meaning of words written 200 years ago you can’t consider the views or statements of the writers (because a group can’t have a unified intent or something) but instead must cherry pick from contemporary dictionaries the meaning you want and declare it the universally understood meaning (because a group of millions will always agree on the meaning of a word).
 
Wow, you really wasted a lot of time with that post.

Equal protection requires only that likes be treated alike and, as a historical matter, marriage has been defined as a union of one man and one woman for millennia, including at the time of the adoption of the 14th Amendment.

Defined by whom?
 
Wow, you really wasted a lot of time with that post.

Equal protection requires only that likes be treated alike and, as a historical matter, marriage has been defined as a union of one man and one woman for millennia, including at the time of the adoption of the 14th Amendment.

Ahhh the separate but equal argument, so (18)90s of you.

Roberts’ dissent is a perfect example of the faulty assumptions inherent in originalist textualism:

1. That a practice that has been common in the US and without cannot be unconstitutional and must be fixed through the judicial process.

2. That issues breaking down along partisan lines must be politics rather than constitutional (at least Roberts is more consistent than Scalia on this)

3. That the courts’ past interpretation of a broad word like liberty ccould not have been under inclusive.

4. That the writers of the Constitution intended their words to be static throughout time.
 
Statutory interpretation =/= constitutional interpretation

They are obviously similar, but pretty much everyone agrees that different rules of interpretation apply.

Also, it’s just wrong to claim that textualism “isn’t supposed to use outside sources.” Read a few Scalia/Thomas opinions/dissents in constitutional cases. They make extensive use of outside sources. It’s the best way to determine original meaning.

Textualism =/= originalism. Scalia was a textualist.

I just took a class on statutory and legislative interpretation taught by an apellate Judge with 30 years of judicial experience. Canons of interpretation don’t change because something is in the Constitution. Scalia used the exact same canons for 4th Amendment interpretation as he did for Title VII interpretation. I can send you my notes if you want.
 
Statutory interpretation =/= constitutional interpretation

They are obviously similar, but pretty much everyone agrees that different rules of interpretation apply.

Also, it’s just wrong to claim that textualism “isn’t supposed to use outside sources.” Read a few Scalia/Thomas opinions/dissents in constitutional cases. They make extensive use of outside sources. It’s the best way to determine original meaning.

From Princeton professor Keith Whittington:

Textualism is a formalist theory in which the interpretation of the law is primarily based on the ordinary meaning of the legal text, where no consideration is given to non-textual sources, such as: intention of the law when passed, the problem it was intended to remedy, or significant questions regarding the justice or rectitude of the law.

By the way, dictionaries aren't considered outside sources, so I'm going to go ahead and cut that argument off now.
 
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