John McCain has died

[Strickland33]

fair, but I dont represent DSA, and im not here to win any converts. I don't have any hope for anyone policing the decorum of a John McCain thread. My local DSA and the national DSA is focused on outreach to minorities and working class whites.

I just mean in terms of the board far left. My early posting style was pretty incendiary and reactive to the centrism on here, but at the end of the day, I think that it was more self-serving than it was engaging with other folks and their opinions on here.

Nothing we do on here is activism. Arguing with Ph, RJ, ChrisL, etc. doesn't mean anything if we're not out there doing work in our communities. My hunch is that is actually doing "the work" of "democracy" and political advocacy is what separates those of us who identify as progressive from those who don't. And that's fine.

It's just getting to the point where the constant aggression is allowing posters to discredit the work that DSA is doing because its messengers are more interested in lashing out at posters they dislike than actually advocating for the positions that the organization more generally is doing an outstanding job of bringing to the fore.

 

[MHBDemon]

Also:

 

[MHBDemon]

I just mean in terms of the board far left. My early posting style was pretty incendiary and reactive to the centrism on here, but at the end of the day, I think that it was more self-serving than it was engaging with other folks and their opinions on here.

Nothing we do on here is activism. Arguing with Ph, RJ, ChrisL, etc. doesn't mean anything if we're not out there doing work in our communities. My hunch is that is actually doing "the work" of "democracy" and political advocacy is what separates those of us who identify as progressive from those who don't. And that's fine.

It's just getting to the point where the constant aggression is allowing posters to discredit the work that DSA is doing because its messengers are more interested in lashing out at posters they dislike than actually advocating for the positions that the organization more generally is doing an outstanding job of bringing to the fore.

This is how both side-ism works though. I'm not disputing that my behavior is at times incendiary. It is largely driven by a long running frustration with RJ for refusing to try to understand arguments, poor reading comprehension, poor writing, and all the other bullshit tactics he uses. But my behavior is no better or worse than others on here (with exceptions). See Shoo and RJ recently.

I am not allowing posters to discredit the work that DSA is doing. They are allowing the center/right to discredit the work that we are doing, by preferring to feign outrage at my words over real outrage of the conditions that produced Trump.

 

[RJKarl]

RJ, are you organizing your community to vote yes on Prop 10? What about against ICE’s infiltration into institutions designed to help indigent Californians? What about for health care for all?

I’m asking because DSA is out there every day, canvassing, phonebanking, and collecting signatures on all of the issues that Democrats allegedly care about, but haven’t positively impacted in decades.

On the one hand, I agree that mdmh and mhb have been lousy messengers as of late, but it would be stupid to write off the positive work that DSA has been doing around the United States while the rest of the left appears to be conflating retweeting and arguing on the internet with activism.

There you go again. Changing the goalposts to make yourself look superior.

If you ACTUALLY paid attention and weren't try to start something, as usual, you'd know that I am only addressing how MHB and MDMH have acted on multiple threads. I have not said DSA is acting like they are.

If you paid ANY attention AT ALL to these boards over the past decade, you would have seen 100s (or more) of my posts about Medicare for All and other forms of universal healthcare. But you'd rather plead ignorance and try to be snarky.

 

[Strickland33]

This is how both side-ism works though. I'm not disputing that my behavior is at times incendiary. It is largely driven by a long running frustration with RJ for refusing to try to understand arguments, poor reading comprehension, poor writing, and all the other bullshit tactics he uses. But my behavior is no better or worse than others on here (with exceptions). See Shoo and RJ recently.

I am not allowing posters to discredit the work that DSA is doing. They are allowing the center/right to discredit the work that we are doing, by preferring to feign outrage at my words over real outrage of the conditions that produced Trump.

I don't know about that. I don't want to speak for them, but it is my perspective at least that usually evenhanded left posters like Ph, itc, etc. are getting frustrated by the tone of your posts. Lashing out at Shoo and RJ - and I agree with you about their style of posting - has the effect of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

For instance, calling McCain a piece of shit on the day that he died is just incendiary. Any American (or OGB tunnels vet) who has been following this fiasco should realize that McCain ushered the Tea Party into the mainstream by picking Palin and by refusing to discredit the far right's racist attacks on Obama during his run for president. They should realize that McCain's voting record has been as mainstream Republican - however defined at the time - as they come. He's pro war, pro tax cuts for the rich, pro cutting benefits for the poor, etc. I hope that NED can see that, but I don't expect him to really be outraged by those features because he is a (former) self-identified Republican. And yet, the guy just died. There is a difference between tact and critique, at least in terms of how I approach "doing politics" at this point in my life.

Had you not gone off on the dude to the extent that you had, then maybe we could be discussing how McCain's legacy is actually Donald Trump for any number of reasons. We could be talking about how George W. Bush is a war criminal and nothing that he does - from painting to handing Michelle Obama candy - will ever be cute because of the crimes that he committed in our names and with our tax dollars.

But now, we have the board liberals trying to one-up each other in terms of defending McCain's legacy and shitting all over you and mdmh.

Again, just my two cents.

 

[Strickland33]

There you go again. Changing the goalposts to make yourself look superior.

If you ACTUALLY paid attention and weren't try to start something, as usual, you'd know that I am only addressing how MHB and MDMH have acted on multiple threads. I have not said DSA is acting like they are.

If you paid ANY attention AT ALL to these boards over the past decade, you would have seen 100s (or more) of my posts about Medicare for All and other forms of universal healthcare. But you'd rather plead ignorance and try to be snarky.

Good lord, you are terrible sometimes RJ.

And you still didn't answer my questions so I'm going to assume that the answer is no. DSA is running efforts to bring Rent Control to communities in Orange County (e.g., Santa Ana). It would be cool for you to use your accumulated political capital and experience to help out. Internet warrior-ism isn't political activism. DSA is one of the rare examples where activists are doing both. I'd like to see Dems do more of the latter because, if anything, the lack of attention to on-the-ground political mobilization is exactly why Trump won.

 

[Gooner]

For all that I have said about topics being derailed by the hardliner fascists and leftists, RJ is still Supreme Ruler of derailing threads.

 

[RJKarl]

For all that I have said about topics being derailed by the hardliner fascists and leftists, RJ is still Supreme Ruler of derailing threads.

How did I derail this thread? That's absurd.

 

[RJKarl]

Good lord, you are terrible sometimes RJ.

And you still didn't answer my questions so I'm going to assume that the answer is no. DSA is running efforts to bring Rent Control to communities in Orange County (e.g., Santa Ana). It would be cool for you to use your accumulated political capital and experience to help out. Internet warrior-ism isn't political activism. DSA is one of the rare examples where activists are doing both. I'd like to see Dems do more of the latter because, if anything, the lack of attention to on-the-ground political mobilization is exactly why Trump won.

AS recently as 2012 and 14, I have worked with the unions in OC on issues. This year I've many things on my plate that keeps me from personally being on the streets or the phones. That doesn't mean I don't talk to people or give ideas about the issues.

Once again, your amateur, childish, condescending, attempted gotcha BS is FOS.

As to your last sentence, if you look back at 2016, you'll posts of mine saying Dems were being lazy and needed to step on Trump's throat rather than playing so nicely. But again, you have NEVER cared about reality. Your main purpose is to find a way to make yourself better than you are or ever have been.

I'd guesstimate at least 75% of your posts to or about me are for the purpose of confrontation rather than discussion, learning or trying to work together. It's on you. But you'll come up with a nonsensical excuse rather than changing your attitude and style.

It doesn't have to be this way, but you have made a conscious choice to make it so.

 

[Strickland33]

AS recently as 2012 and 14, I have worked with the unions in OC on issues. This year I've many things on my plate that keeps me from personally being on the streets or the phones. That doesn't mean I don't talk to people or give ideas about the issues.

Once again, your amateur, childish, condescending, attempted gotcha BS is FOS.

As to your last sentence, if you look back at 2016, you'll posts of mine saying Dems were being lazy and needed to step on Trump's throat rather than playing so nicely. But again, you have NEVER cared about reality. Your main purpose is to find a way to make yourself better than you are or ever have been.

I'd guesstimate at least 75% of your posts to or about me are for the purpose of confrontation rather than discussion, learning or trying to work together. It's on you. But you'll come up with a nonsensical excuse rather than changing your attitude and style.

It doesn't have to be this way, but you have made a conscious choice to make it so.

RJ, I'm not sure that it would be possible to have a conversation with you that is based on discussion, learning or trying to work together. That conclusion is based on N=60,102 observations and interactions with just about every poster on this board.

Sometimes, when everybody around you is acting like an asshole, then perhaps you might be acting like an asshole to everybody around you.

I'm done participating in this thread derail, though.

I'm happy that you were working in politics as recently as four years ago. I hope that you are able to participate more in the years to come. There are a lot of ways to help out - from using social media to amplify the coverage of causes to phonebanking from home. Not everybody can knock on doors, but everybody can do something. California needs every bit of help to advance a progressive agenda.

 

[RJKarl]

If you stopped playing gotcha and being condescending, we'd be able to have good conversations.

I have no clue what N=60,102 means.

On this thread, the only people acting like assholes are MHB, MDMH and you (and Lectro). It's not close to being everyone. But keep inventing things, you love doing it to try to cover for yourself.

 

[Strickland33]

If you stopped playing gotcha and being condescending, we'd be able to have good conversations.

I have no clue what N=60,102 means.

On this thread, the only people acting like assholes are MHB, MDMH and you (and Lectro). It's not close to being everyone. But keep inventing things, you love doing it to try to cover for yourself.

RJ, you haven't responded to a single substantive point that I've made on this thread. And if you see my posts as comparable to MHB, mdmh, and Lecture (or even if you see these posters' posts as comparable), then there is no conversation to be had.

All of this is to say, my original point was that I'm not going to criticize people who are actually out there doing the work if I'm not out there doing the work. Democratic Socialism deserves better messengers, but it's pretty stupid to write off the work that the organization is doing (especially considering its exponential growth over the last three years and its increasing centrality to ongoing policy debates) because two posters annoy you. Compare how the DSA is building and utilizing its political capital vs. the Democratic party and it explains a lot of how we got to where we are today.

 

[RJKarl]

This is what I'm talking about. I haven't denigrated the DSA or what they are doing. I've denigrated the actions and tones of MHB and MDMH, but you go ahead to change what I've posted. Then, you try to play gotcha. I haven't said what you allege.

What I have said about the DSA is that if group acts like MHB and MDMH, they would be big trouble.

Now, you'll try to change what I've said to fit a narrative to show you are right and I'm wrong.

BTW, I worked on $15/hour since 2014 and worked on having a living wage before that.

You'll try to find a word or a phrase that you can parse to play gotcha rather than admit to the fact I have agreed with and worked on the issues you note. You can accept agreement with me. You must feel that you are better.

 

[Strickland33]

 

[Shooshmoo]

New Yorker - Voice of the Centrists.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

New Yorker - Voice of the Centrists.

Well, how would you refer to wealthy metropolitan liberals who are economically conservative and apathetic to imperialist foreign policy?

 

[DeaconSig]

This is how both side-ism works though. I'm not disputing that my behavior is at times incendiary. It is largely driven by a long running frustration with RJ for refusing to try to understand arguments, poor reading comprehension, poor writing, and all the other bullshit tactics he uses. But my behavior is no better or worse than others on here (with exceptions). See Shoo and RJ recently.

I am not allowing posters to discredit the work that DSA is doing. They are allowing the center/right to discredit the work that we are doing, by preferring to feign outrage at my words over real outrage of the conditions that produced Trump.

To be clear, I don’t have any problem with the DSA. It’s particular brand of progressivism is a bit left of mine, but not the n a major way. I just dislike assholes. It’s why I spend most of my time talking shit to Brad, bkf, the HGToH, Palma, and the other right-wing troglodytes on the board. It’s why I talk shit to RJ. And it’s why I’m talking shit to you and MDMH.

Talk like an adult and we’ll be fine.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

To be clear, I don’t have any problem with the DSA. It’s particular brand of progressivism is a bit left of mine, but not the n a major way. I just dislike assholes. It’s why I spend most of my time talking shit to Brad, bkf, the HGToH, Palma, and the other right-wing troglodytes on the board. It’s why I talk shit to RJ. And it’s why I’m talking shit to you and MDMH.

Talk like an adult and we’ll be fine.

I also dislike assholes, even after they die. It wont be long until Trump dies and I wont be respectful about that motherfucker either.

 

[MHBDemon]

Not according to MHB and MDMH.

Mdmh’s kid must not sleep at all.

MHB just needs to get laid in the worst way.

To be clear, I don’t have any problem with the DSA. It’s particular brand of progressivism is a bit left of mine, but not the n a major way. I just dislike assholes. It’s why I spend most of my time talking shit to Brad, bkf, the HGToH, Palma, and the other right-wing troglodytes on the board. It’s why I talk shit to RJ. And it’s why I’m talking shit to you and MDMH.

Talk like an adult and we’ll be fine.

I don't need a lecture on talking like an adult. If I get criticism for acting like an asshole, that's fine. Your posts above were either childish or asshole-ish. So a little self-reflection would be nice. It seems pointless to continue keeping score on who is a bigger asshole than the other, when we all take out our frustrations on certain posters.

I appreciate you not having any problems with DSA and clarifying. I think we all sometimes assume we know another's position on a topic based on assumptions about their political party. Or we take for granted that posters can't keep track of everyone's political beliefs. I don't really even know what Shoo or ITC or you believe. I don't say that to be offensive, just to acknowledge that I get frustrated with certain posting styles, and I don't track your political opinions in the threads I read. RJ says he agrees with 60-80% of what I agree with but spends all his time arguing with me and telling me my ideas are stupid.

On the days that I have been an asshole on this thread, it was because I rejected the re-writing of the man's legacy into a whitewashed, human rights advocate and healthcare champion. Sometimes it's worth being an asshole to speak out against something so grossly false and insidious. I apologize to NED for being an asshole.

 

[PhDeac]

I also dislike assholes, even after they die. It wont be long until Trump dies and I wont be respectful about that motherfucker either.

McCain supported some bad stuff, but he wasn’t an asshole.