John McCain has died

[Strickland33]

McCain supported some bad stuff, but he wasn’t an asshole.

If it's all right to begin honestly debating his legacy (a.k.a. are we finished with the bipartisan hagiography?), then how do you reconcile this characterization with his incorporation of the Tea Party into mainstream Republican politics and systematic debasement of Obama via his campaign?

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

McCain supported some bad stuff, but he wasn’t an asshole.

Set aside his politics, McCains involvement with the Keating 5, the circumstances of leaving his handicapped first wife, and his calling Cindy a "trollop" and a "cunt" make him an asshole.

 

[PhDeac]

If it's all right to begin honestly debating his legacy (a.k.a. are we finished with the bipartisan hagiography?), then how do you reconcile this characterization with his incorporation of the Tea Party into mainstream Republican politics and systematic debasement of Obama via his campaign?

I don’t think his “systematic debasement” (whatever that is) introduced the Tea Party. I think introducing Palin to the world helped do that. But I think those elements were already simmering and were ready to emerge if a Democrat won.

 

[Strickland33]

I don’t think his “systematic debasement” (whatever that is) introduced the Tea Party. I think introducing Palin to the world helped do that. But I think those elements were already simmering and were ready to emerge if a Democrat won.

Wouldn't an honorable man with the level of political courage that folks use to characterize McCain been able to resist the incursion on political norms/values via the Tea Party and could have written off the relentless racist characterization of Obama as rantings of a deranged fringe?

Who takes responsibility for their actions in this new politics?

ETA: I meant that accepting Palin helped to incorporate the Tea Party into the mainstream by giving it a far bigger platform than it had ever achieved prior to that point. His campaign also made it a priority to debase Obama at every turn, usually on account of his race (or via dogwhistles like Reverend Wright and his youthful experimentation with drugs) or religious background.

 

[RJKarl]

I don't need a lecture on talking like an adult. If I get criticism for acting like an asshole, that's fine. Your posts above were either childish or asshole-ish. So a little self-reflection would be nice. It seems pointless to continue keeping score on who is a bigger asshole than the other, when we all take out our frustrations on certain posters.

I appreciate you not having any problems with DSA and clarifying. I think we all sometimes assume we know another's position on a topic based on assumptions about their political party. Or we take for granted that posters can't keep track of everyone's political beliefs. I don't really even know what Shoo or ITC or you believe. I don't say that to be offensive, just to acknowledge that I get frustrated with certain posting styles, and I don't track your political opinions in the threads I read. RJ says he agrees with 60-80% of what I agree with but spends all his time arguing with me and telling me my ideas are stupid.

On the days that I have been an asshole on this thread, it was because I rejected the re-writing of the man's legacy into a whitewashed, human rights advocate and healthcare champion. Sometimes it's worth being an asshole to speak out against something so grossly false and insidious. I apologize to NED for being an asshole.

NO, I say your actions and the way you treat people is stupid, counter-productive and classless. I say that your attacks on others harm your goals.

As many others have also said, your lack of empathy and human decency in this case shows a lot about you. It's sad.

RE:Strickland- I'm not having problems with everyone on this thread. I'm only having problems with MHB, MDMH and YOU. But keep on inventing things to make you feel better about yourself even when the truth is not what you are saying.

 

[ConnorEl]

I think Strickland is sort of trying to extend an olive branch.


Or play a bit the role of a peacemaker.






 

[Strickland33]

I thing Strickland is sort of trying to extend an olive branch.


Or play a bit the role of a peacemaker.




👍🏼

It's kind of amazing that he can't seem to see that and instead has decided to pick a fight with me, but that's RJ.

 

[ConnorEl]

McCain’s pick of Palin was a mistake of political expediency.


I think he would have been more comfortable personally with Lieberman.

 

[MHBDemon]

NO, I say your actions and the way you treat people is stupid, counter-productive and classless. I say that your attacks on others harm your goals.

As many others have also said, your lack of empathy and human decency in this case shows a lot about you. It's sad.

RE:Strickland- I'm not having problems with everyone on this thread. I'm only having problems with MHB, MDMH and YOU. But keep on inventing things to make you feel better about yourself even when the truth is not what you are saying.

The way you treat people is top-notch. I've apologized to NED. You continue to insult me without ever providing substantive arguments to my positions. I have empathy and human decency for a lot of people in my life and community. I don't need to have empathy for a warmonger or show my human decency by guessing if Bush gave Michelle a caramel or peppermint or butterscotch. So unless you have a substantive criticism of one of my positions, fuck off.

 

[RJKarl]

It's kind of amazing that he can't seem to see that and instead has decided to pick a fight with me, but that's RJ.

There you go again...you can't help passive-aggressiveness and condescending nature.

I respect Connor. I would have re-read your posts because of his comment, but you couldn't help yourself from throwing a jab.

Maybe you should try not to do that.

 

[Strickland33]

McCain’s pick of Palin was a mistake of political expediency.


I think he would have been more comfortable personally with Lieberman.

It may have been a mistake of political expediency, but he should also be responsible for the consequences (e.g., legitimizing the rise of the Tea Party, extreme right, etc.). It's not like McCain has ever lacked agency as a politician. Again, a man of true courage and fortitude should have had no trouble telling the sniveling cowards of the RNC to fuck off when they floated Palin as an option.

There you go again...you can't help passive-aggressiveness and condescending nature.

I respect Connor. I would have re-read your posts because of his comment, but you couldn't help yourself from throwing a jab.

Maybe you should try not to do that.

Doesn't your schtick ever get old? Seriously. Is picking fights on here like a drinking game at that bar you like to go to. Give it a rest, RJ. Not everything is a slight. You like to pick fights with everybody for insults intended and imagined. That's your schtick on here.

 

[ConnorEl]

Like I said, it was a mistake.



I think McCain would admit as much.

 

[RJKarl]

Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. I much prefer the interactions I have with people like Connor, Shorty, NED, ELC, palma, creamy, Wrangor and dozens of others who don't act like you.

You need to work on your passive-aggressiveness.

 

[MHBDemon]

Christ. Do you really believe this shit? That liberals are ready to join the Republican Party if they work together to get rid of Trump? No wonder why you are so fuckikg paranoid.

I am a former Republican and even I think this would be a dumb fucking idea. I’ve said many times the GOP needs to take a nice long timeout and think about how it’s behaved...top down.

Democrats have an incredible opportunity to responsibly lead the country for at least several cycles. Don’t fuck it up.

What do you mean do I believe it? It's happened before in this country, and its happening right before our eyes. A bunch of liberals are celebrating the presence of Kissinger, Bush and other war criminals at the funeral of a person who was allegedly against their interests. Palin and Brazile are having a party. Obama said he never doubted him and McCain were on the same team. Tom Perez thinks dems should start taking fossil fuel money again. The MO Dem party removed statements regarding pro-choice stances from their platform. The Democratic party has been so bad on labor issues, the KS firefighters just backed Kobach over a dem for the first time in their history. Schumer just struck a deal to approve all Trump's judges. If a new member (cough...Cortez) ever tries to share a pro-palestinian stance, the establishment freaks out and makes her backtrack.

*you are still a Republican.

If Democrats fuck it up, it won't be my fault.

It's always nice to have someone insult your intelligence and call you paranoid and then ignore your thorough explanation.

The UN just said that Yemen is the worst humanitarian crisis since WWII. But NED can't be bothered with any criticisms of imperialism or his resistance hero.

 

[ConnorEl]

Obama largely tried to govern from the middle.

I think it was a political calculation, an attempt to compromise his personal preferences to try and get something bipartisan going. Or at least to make the endlessly inaccurate accusations of his radicalism ring hollow.

He wasn’t so successful—largely due to self-serving Pubs willing to fuck the good of people for their own grasp for power.

His comments in that clip were, I suspect, mostly aimed at trying to indicate how to Pubs had drifted ridiculously rightward. Or to suggest that their resistance to his efforts was the (unfortunately successful) cynical ploy it was.

 

[cville deac]

McCain’s pick of Palin was a mistake of political expediency.


I think he would have been more comfortable personally with Lieberman.

Sure, he would have been more comfortable with and wanted to pick Lieberman, but his party would have revolted, and he just couldn't do it as a practical matter. Palin was just a plain mistake period. McCain's peeps and a different Pub group both thought the other had vetted Palin, though it soon became obvious to both that neither had properly vetted her. Just a yuge eff-up. That said, the segment of the Pub party that loved her has now taken over the party to the tune of 85% of the party.

 

[MHBDemon]