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Wake Forest Offseason Basketball Thread: Deacs in Inaugural Myrtle Beach Invitational

RacerDeac said:
The argument that we DIDN'T underperform in 16/17 relies on believing that somehow Manning did a great job at team building, game prep, game management, etc, etc in 16/17, and that it was a major improvement over the two years previous, and that he forgot all that he had learned in the year immediately following. Manning has been the constant over the last 4 years. The argument for him when hired was that he was still learning and could grow into the coach we needed him to be, but we've seen little/any development of himself as a head coach. How often has he said that he needs to get better? Do we have any info that he's sought outside help or consulting? Maybe he has and I've tuned it out?

16/17 stands out slightly from the abyss of the other three seasons because of talent, but Manning was still the same coach through it all. He gets credit for the talent and talent development (things we knew he was good at from the start) that led to Collins and others having a great jumps in their individual abilities, but there's no evidence that he had one year where he suddenly became better at every other aspect of the job before regressing back to himself.
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There’s also no one arguing that he did.
 
knowell said:
Relative to the talent on the team. That should be the only measure that matters. Who cares what some guys that spent 5 minutes reviewing Wake's record and who who was lost and who was added think.
No "experts" spend any time on an in depth analysis of Wake basketball. It has been irrelevant for too long.

The people on this board are the closest you will get to "experts" since we are probably the only ones actually watching the games.
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I agree with this. Manning exceeded the preseason predictions of 88% of the board in 16-17.
 
RChildress107 said:
I agree with this. Manning exceeded the preseason predictions of 88% of the board in 16-17.
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Due to one factor we acknowledge Manning did well, developing Collins.

So why hasn’t he developed any other players to overachieve?
 
PhDeac said:
Due to one factor we acknowledge Manning did well, developing Collins.

So why hasn’t he developed any other players to overachieve?
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Was Doral expected to average almost a double double his junior year, based on his HS performance and pre- college evaluations? Not as rapid a rise, nor as far as Collins went, but better than expected improvement.
 
I meant overachieve as a team. We definitely didn’t do that last year. The fact Moore personally overachieved expectations and we still only got 11 wins is damning.
 
I used to be annoyed at the pages and pages of repeated conversation about the exact same thing with nobody convincing anybody of anything, but now I'm just impressed at the stamina and complete disregard for anybody interested in the actual subject of the thread at hand among the five or so folks who consistently participate
 
WFUWaldo said:
In an attempt to get us back on track, our secret scrimmage is in 4 days (10/27) at East Carolina. Are Les/Conor invited to those type of events?
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Does Jeremy Ingram still play for them?

I don’t follow ECU basketball that closely.
 
RChildress107 said:
I agree that we underachieved relative to our talent, nearly every college team does. I disagree that is the only measure that matters. In fact I think it doesn’t matter at all. If you could choose from the following coaches to replace Manning, who would you choose?

1. A coach who will recruit 3-star talent and get the most out of that talent, finishing as a surprise bubble team most years but never doing much better than a tournament appearance.

2. A coach who will recruit 3-star talent, turn it into 4-star talent, but will slightly “underachieve” with that talent, finishing as a bubble team most years with the occasional higher seed or tournament run.

3. A coach who recruits 4-star talent masquerading as 3-star talent, doesn’t develop those players and slightly “underachieves”, finishing with similar results to coach 2.

4. A coach who recruits 5-star talent, relies on that talent to perform as expected and gel on their own as a team, the talent never reaches its full potential and sometimes vastly underachieves. His default will be high seed early round flameouts; he will make a few deep tournament runs but will also completely miss the tournament one year.
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Obviously one of these is not like the others. Wake Forest is not going start recruiting 5 star players year in and year out regardless of who the coach is. There are a handful of coaches that can do that and they have proven themselves as good at either bench coaching or player development or both in order to attract those players. Also helps to have blue blood.

If you are asking whether I would prefer to watch an 18 win team that is mega talented but is otherwise poorly coached and looses games because of it VS an 18 win team that is not overly talented but plays hard every play and is well coached and plays above their talent level, I will take the latter every time.

I want my team to win but I also like watching basketball for it's own sake. Nothing is worse that wasted potential. Nothing is more frustrating than watching good talent poorly employed.

If nothing else, if I have a good coach than is not a great recruiter, I can always hope he gets lucky on a recruit or two. If I have a coach that screws up the talent he has, it will be just as frustrating watching him screw up at a higher level.
 
Makes sense that WF would scrimmage ECU as their coach Joe Dooley (his 2nd tenure there) was an assistant at KS when Manning was also an assistant there.

ECU has Seth LeDay, brother of former Hokie Zach LeDay. ECU is terrible. They open the season with a #279 KP. ECU went 10-20 (4-14) last year with losses to Charlotte (remember how godawful Charlotte was?) and NC A&T?

BTW, even though it may be a struggle, can't wait for the season to start. These mindless posts rehashing the same arguments by the anti-Manning and pro-Manning forces are such a waste. Looking forward to analyzing games and players, rather than these repetitive gasbag posts (on both sides).
 
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I’ve always blamed Prosser for not properly developing Jeremy Ingram and Todd Hendley.

A stain on an otherwise successful coaching career.

I mean, they either weren’t ACC level players and shouldn’t have been recruited in the first place... Or they should have been better as freshmen at Wake Forest.

Just damning.
 
RChildress107 said:
If y’all want to argue about whether the 16-17 team reached its potential, do it somewhere else. I’ll save you some time though, as with every Wake team in living memory, and virtually every college team ever, the answer is No.
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If you want to be a condescending and grandstanding prick, feel free to do it somewhere else. Again, just GTFO with your message board bullying you pathetic keyboard warrior. We'll talk about what we want, when we want to and where we want. Who cares what you want?
 
knowell said:
Relative to the talent on the team. That should be the only measure that matters. Who cares what some guys that spent 5 minutes reviewing Wake's record and who who was lost and who was added think.
No "experts" spend any time on an in depth analysis of Wake basketball. It has been irrelevant for too long.

The people on this board are the closest you will get to "experts" since we are probably the only ones actually watching the games.
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Yup, pretty much this. As usual RC only wants to argue what he thinks are the parameters of said discussion. It's obvious to anyone paying close attention to that team in that season that they underachieved relative to their level of assembled talent. Anyone can say Wake Forest exceeded or overachieved "expert" expectations or predictions because most experts didn't care to take the time to analyze or assess a team that just came off a pathetic and underachieving 2-17 record in the ACC the year before. But you also could tell early on that that same '16-'17 team wasn't going to win with defense. That was also easy to diagnose after a few games. So at that point, any comparison to '15-'16 was irrelevant for the folks on this message board who dissect this shit like it's their job.
 
Pilchard said:
These mindless posts rehashing the same arguments by the anti-Manning and pro-Manning forces are such a waste. Looking forward to analyzing games and players, rather than these repetitive gasbag posts (on both sides).
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We should ALL be a united anti-Manning front at this point...what is there to be excited about when it comes to the coaching of Smokin' Danny Manning!? There ain't no "miracles" up those tiny lapel-breasted suit coat sleeves of his.
 
Pilchard said:
BTW, even though it may be a struggle, can't wait for the season to start. These mindless posts rehashing the same arguments by the anti-Manning and pro-Manning forces are such a waste. Looking forward to analyzing games and players, rather than these repetitive gasbag posts (on both sides).
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Agreed. At least it will give us something more concrete to talk about. And we should figure out pretty quick if we’re going to implode or be a decent team. Will hopefully bring some consensus to the boards.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Never has before, don't know why it would now.
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The more evidence, the increased clarity of the outcome.

If we are an ACC bottom-feeder again, I don't see how anyone would be able to defend Manning. If we are an NCAA tournament team, particularly with the expectations that are currently set for the program, it would be hard for anyone to be very anti-Manning.

For everyone's sake, hopefully we don't fall in the middle and have another 12 months of this crap.
 
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