• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Official House Democrats thread (Pelosi #undefeated)

It’s good that AOC is bringing this up. The more the math is out there in the discussion is good for everyone. Our overall rate of taxation as a % of GDP is always somewhere between 17% and 20% IIRC, right Chris? I think we are in the low 17s now and the degrees of progression within that range is the debate, right?
 
I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think he's saying that the argument of "of course we can raise marginal rates that high, they were that high before and things were fine!" is a little misleading. The charts make it look like the rich paid way more in taxes back then, but the average effective tax rate of the top 1% in the 1950s was 42%. I don't have data for 2018, but as of a couple years ago, top 1% was playing an average of 36%. Still less than they used to obviously, but not by as much as the marginal rate differences makes it seems.

I see two different arguments. One is that based on historical data, we can very likely raise effective rates on the rich some without meaningful affecting GDP. But to go as high as AOC is suggesting is not an apples to apples comparison with the high marginal rates of the past for a number of reasons. I think that's all Chris was saying.

A second argument is whether we *should* go even higher (than historical precedent) with our effective rates. I think you can make a compelling argument the answer is yes, acknowledging that there would be more uncertainty and at some level we will be negatively impacting the economy (and even that may be okay, if the payoff is worth it in other areas). But that is an entirely different discussion.

Excellent post. I always appreciate the expertise on these boards but find is frustrating at how quickly the experts are attacked based on quasi-informed partisan thought. This happens on both sides here.

I do believe we need to augment the progressive nature of the tax system in a smart and prudent way rather than simply taxing the hell out of income. For one, we should lift the FICA cap on income as well as looking at long term capital gains tax rates. I'd also support increasing the marginal rates somewhat but north of 50% seems more progressive optics than smart policy. We need to level the playing field but not sure a severely sloped progressive tax code is the best way to handle. It does make for a good talking point / tweet.
 
I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think he's saying that the argument of "of course we can raise marginal rates that high, they were that high before and things were fine!" is a little misleading. The charts make it look like the rich paid way more in taxes back then, but the average effective tax rate of the top 1% in the 1950s was 42%. I don't have data for 2018, but as of a couple years ago, top 1% was playing an average of 36%. Still less than they used to obviously, but not by as much as the marginal rate differences makes it seems.

I see two different arguments. One is that based on historical data, we can very likely raise effective rates on the rich some without meaningful affecting GDP. But to go as high as AOC is suggesting is not an apples to apples comparison with the high marginal rates of the past for a number of reasons. I think that's all Chris was saying.

But before someone goes off on Krugman and says his argument is terrible, they should probably do the math themselves. How would a 70% tax rate on >$10 million change the effective tax rate of the 1%? Without that data, his argument is just as specious.
 
And if the tax revenue is properly applied to infrastructure innovation and improvement, ownership reaps the economic benefit moreso than the working class by leaps and bounds, no?
 
But before someone goes off on Krugman and says his argument is terrible, they should probably do the math themselves. How would a 70% tax rate on >$10 million change the effective tax rate of the 1%? Without that data, his argument is just as specious.

Agree with this. The majority of the top 1% isn’t making $1 million, let alone $10 million. So when applying the change to the top .01% the effect on the top 1% as a whole is probably pretty minimal. Feel like the numbers to run the math should be out there. Also I’m assuming eventually this would include changing how capital gains are treated since a large percentage of the .01% have their income predominantly fall in that category.
 
Either capital gains from the stock market should be treated the same a gambling winnings or gambling winnings should be treated the same as stock market income.
 
If they’re short term gains, they already are.
 
wat. Short term capital gains are taxed at the same rate as gambling winnings.

Long term capital gains are probably what you’re getting at but I wouldn’t really consider it gambling if you’re holding it that long.
 
wat. Short term capital gains are taxed at the same rate as gambling winnings.

Long term capital gains are probably what you’re getting at but I wouldn’t really consider it gambling if you’re holding it that long.

Long term stock market capital gains are gambling. Ask the people who held Lehman Brothers or Blockbuster or Cisco or others. Following a horse or a team over a period of time is the same thing as following a stock.
 
Alright well I hope your personal investment strategies are a bit more nuanced than that.
 
The Economics of Soaking the Rich

I have no idea how well Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez will perform as a member of Congress. But her election is already serving a valuable purpose. You see, the mere thought of having a young, articulate, telegenic nonwhite woman serve is driving many on the right mad — and in their madness they’re inadvertently revealing their true selves.

Some of the revelations are cultural: The hysteria over a video of AOC dancing in college says volumes, not about her, but about the hysterics. But in some ways the more important revelations are intellectual: The right’s denunciation of AOC’s “insane” policy ideas serves as a very good reminder of who is actually insane.

The controversy of the moment involves AOC’s advocacy of a tax rate of 70-80 percent on very high incomes, which is obviously crazy, right? I mean, who thinks that makes sense? Only ignorant people like … um, Peter Diamond, Nobel laureate in economics and arguably the world’s leading expert on public finance. (Although Republicans blocked him from an appointment to the Federal Reserve Board with claims that he was unqualified. Really.) And it’s a policy nobody has ever implemented, aside from … the United States, for 35 years after World War II — including the most successful period of economic growth in our history.

To be more specific, Diamond, in work with Emmanuel Saez — one of our leading experts on inequality — estimated the optimal top tax rate to be 73 percent. Some put it higher: Christina Romer, top macroeconomist and former head of President Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers, estimates it at more than 80 percent.

Where do these numbers come from? Underlying the Diamond-Saez analysis are two propositions: Diminishing marginal utility and competitive markets.

Diminishing marginal utility is the common-sense notion that an extra dollar is worth a lot less in satisfaction to people with very high incomes than to those with low incomes. Give a family with an annual income of $20,000 an extra $1,000 and it will make a big difference to their lives. Give a guy who makes $1 million an extra thousand and he’ll barely notice it.

What this implies for economic policy is that we shouldn’t care what a policy does to the incomes of the very rich. A policy that makes the rich a bit poorer will affect only a handful of people, and will barely affect their life satisfaction, since they will still be able to buy whatever they want.

So why not tax them at 100 percent? The answer is that this would eliminate any incentive to do whatever it is they do to earn that much money, which would hurt the economy. In other words, tax policy toward the rich should have nothing to do with the interests of the rich, per se, but should only be concerned with how incentive effects change the behavior of the rich, and how this affects the rest of the population.

But here’s where competitive markets come in. In a perfectly competitive economy, with no monopoly power or other distortions — which is the kind of economy conservatives want us to believe we have — everyone gets paid his or her marginal product. That is, if you get paid $1000 an hour, it’s because each extra hour you work adds $1000 worth to the economy’s output.

In that case, however, why do we care how hard the rich work? If a rich man works an extra hour, adding $1000 to the economy, but gets paid $1000 for his efforts, the combined income of everyone else doesn’t change, does it? Ah, but it does — because he pays taxes on that extra $1000. So the social benefit from getting high-income individuals to work a bit harder is the tax revenue generated by that extra effort — and conversely the cost of their working less is the reduction in the taxes they pay.

Or to put it a bit more succinctly, when taxing the rich, all we should care about is how much revenue we raise. The optimal tax rate on people with very high incomes is the rate that raises the maximum possible revenue.

And that’s something we can estimate, given evidence on how responsive the pre-tax income of the wealthy actually is to tax rates. As I said, Diamond and Saez put the optimal rate at 73 percent, Romer at over 80 percent — which is consistent with what AOC said.

An aside: What if we take into account the reality that markets aren’t perfectly competitive, that there’s a lot of monopoly power out there? The answer is that this almost surely makes the case for even higher tax rates, since high-income people presumably get a lot of those monopoly rents.

So AOC, far from showing her craziness, is fully in line with serious economic research. (I hear that she’s been talking to some very good economists.) Her critics, on the other hand, do indeed have crazy policy ideas — and tax policy is at the heart of the crazy.

You see, Republicans almost universally advocate low taxes on the wealthy, based on the claim that tax cuts at the top will have huge beneficial effects on the economy. This claim rests on research by … well, nobody. There isn’t any body of serious work supporting G.O.P. tax ideas, because the evidence is overwhelmingly against those ideas.

Look at the history of top marginal income tax rates (left) versus growth in real GDP per capita (right, measured over 10 years, to smooth out short-run fluctuations.):

190105krugman1-jumbo.png


What we see is that America used to have very high tax rates on the rich — higher even than those AOC is proposing — and did just fine. Since then tax rates have come way down, and if anything the economy has done less well.

Why do Republicans adhere to a tax theory that has no support from nonpartisan economists and is refuted by all available data? Well, ask who benefits from low taxes on the rich, and it’s obvious.

And because the party’s coffers demand adherence to nonsense economics, the party prefers “economists” who are obvious frauds and can’t even fake their numbers effectively.

Which brings me back to AOC, and the constant effort to portray her as flaky and ignorant. Well, on the tax issue she’s just saying what good economists say; and she definitely knows more economics than almost everyone in the G.O.P. caucus, not least because she doesn’t “know” things that aren’t true.
 
Yes. But you’re complaining about jokes.

No I'm not. I'm complaining about people seeing what they want to see rather than what's actually going on. They're projecting.

And btw, it's never funny when 20,000 people on twitter tell the same joke. Get some awareness people.
 
I think people saw an interesting juxtaposition of views and made jokes about it. It’s a classic premise for a joke. A priest and a rabbi walked into a bar. A bisexual atheist and an evangelical politician walked into a swearing in ceremony.
 
First of all people weren't hiding money these were perfectly legal shelters that were in the tax code. Secondly the argument he is making is that these high marginal tax rates didn't have an impact on GDP and the fact that he is ignoring the impact of the shelters and deductions and what they had on the true taxes that high income earners were actually paying is very relevant to that. A Nobel Laureate Economist who focuses on tax policy should understand that

:rofl:

Keep in mind this Nobel Laureate Economist also predicted that by 2005 the internet's impact on the economy will have been no greater than the fax machine.

Good call, Paul.
 
Lucy McBath is at the front and will be one of four speakers introducing the first House gun control bill. Live on C-Span now:

Link

 
 
I thought this was America.
 
Back
Top