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Republicans Shut Down the Federal Government Again & Suffer Humiliating Defeat

PhDeac said:
Yes. And there have been standards and limits on immigration since non-European people started coming here willingly. Somehow people like you have been convinced that the US has had no immigration policy and Trump’s Wall is the solution.
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Talk about a straw man!
 
scooter84 said:
Actually, someone in this very thread asked what problem there is that needs to be solved by the wall - implying that it is not a problem to have open borders. Others have said that controlling the borders is immoral and against the teachings of the bible because we are supposed to help those in need - again implying that we should let all these needy people in. So, actually, there are people that believe we should let them all in.

But, I'll grant that it is something of a straw man, sure, because I don't think the majority of the people are taking that stance. In any event, my point was that there are millions of people trying to get into our country and, for that reason, I believe you need controls in place to limit and restrict those numbers. Our support system, our economy, can only handle so many.

You may not believe it, but even terrible OWGs like me that want to control immigration have compassion - my heart breaks for families suffering through desperate situations around the world. I just know that, no matter how much we all would like to, we can't help them all.
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No one said open borders and letting everyone in. Don't say someone "implied" something. Using your logic, since I haven't said Trump is a criminal for a while, I must be implying I think he's a Top 5 POTUS.

It's the height of dishonesty to make things up to fit your desired outcome.

As to what problem would the wall solve, the answer is NONE. As I showed on this thread, cartels aren't sending drugs in with the migrants trying for asylum or trying to cross illegally. Nor is human trafficking done that way. Don't believe me, read the articles and testimony from El Chapo's trial.
 
scooter84 said:
Talk about a straw man!
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You just asked me if I think we should have standards and limits on immigration as if that’s a new idea.

So tell me why is a Wall all of a sudden a huge policy priority for Republicans?
 
I'm in favor of working toward a system where country borders are like US state borders
 
PhDeac said:
You just asked me if I think we should have standards and limits on immigration as if that’s a new idea.

So tell me why is a Wall all of a sudden a huge policy priority for Republicans?
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No I didn't. I asked you if we should have standards and limits because you asked me why it was bad having immigrants, when I had never said that.

I don't establish policy priorities for the Republicans.
 
PhDeac said:
Stop the gaslighting scooter. You said this: “Actually, someone in this very thread asked what problem there is that needs to be solved by the wall - implying that it is not a problem to have open borders.”
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Nowhere does that say I am a big advocate for the wall. I was just pointing out what someone else said. In other posts of mine I specifically said that I wasn't sure the wall was the best solution.
 
IamThunderbolt said:
While this is true - and it would be interesting to see what that limit is (I expect it is much, much higher than most of us think), our economy would be greatly improved with higher immigration levels - I'll try to link them later, but there have been numerous studies that show the positive benefit to both legal and undocumented immigrants to our economy. In fact, part of the problem is that our economy can support (and actually needs) more immigrant workers than we let in, creating the space for a lot of undocumented workers in the country. In fact, the IRS recognizes this and provides a legal means for these individuals to participate in the economy. So we have a messed up system where it's illegal to hire an unauthorized worker, but our government provides an open way for them to pay taxes - both through a tax ID number and looking the other way when a name and SSN don't align on tax forms.

Also, undocumented immigrants contribute much more in taxes than they receive in services.
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IAT - I appreciate your input - you are clearly closer to this issue than most of the rest of us.

Why does our economy need more immigrant workers? I am curious about that, since, AFAIK, there are non-immigrant workers looking for work. Is it a matter of types of jobs? Geography?
Are parts of our economy built on the backs of undocumented workers who are paid less than minimum wage? I don't know - is that a major problem? Kind of like all the cheap consumer products that are available because of cheap Asian labor?

Is it really true that undocumented immigrants contribute more in taxes than they receive in services. I had read the figure of $71k/year in services per undocumented immigrant. I basically don't trust any statistics I read anywhere, because they all come with an agenda, so I don't know what that really meant.
 
Excellent thread on the "costs" of illegal immigration using data and references.

 
How the hell would you spend 71k/year on someone undocumented?
 
scooter84 said:
IAT - I appreciate your input - you are clearly closer to this issue than most of the rest of us.

Why does our economy need more immigrant workers? I am curious about that, since, AFAIK, there are non-immigrant workers looking for work. Is it a matter of types of jobs? Geography?
Are parts of our economy built on the backs of undocumented workers who are paid less than minimum wage? I don't know - is that a major problem? Kind of like all the cheap consumer products that are available because of cheap Asian labor?

Is it really true that undocumented immigrants contribute more in taxes than they receive in services. I had read the figure of $71k/year in services per undocumented immigrant. I basically don't trust any statistics I read anywhere, because they all come with an agenda, so I don't know what that really meant.
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JFC :bowrofl:
 
scooter84 said:
IAT - I appreciate your input - you are clearly closer to this issue than most of the rest of us.

Why does our economy need more immigrant workers? I am curious about that, since, AFAIK, there are non-immigrant workers looking for work. Is it a matter of types of jobs? Geography?
Are parts of our economy built on the backs of undocumented workers who are paid less than minimum wage? I don't know - is that a major problem? Kind of like all the cheap consumer products that are available because of cheap Asian labor?

Is it really true that undocumented immigrants contribute more in taxes than they receive in services. I had read the figure of $71k/year in services per undocumented immigrant. I basically don't trust any statistics I read anywhere, because they all come with an agenda, so I don't know what that really meant.
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This shows that you stop "reading" those sources. Think about that for a minute. There are 11,000,000 undocumented people in the US. Now multiply that by $71,000 each. That equals over $781BILLION which would be about 15% of our total federal budget.

Also think about $6000 per month per undocumented person. How could we be spending that much? What are they getting? That number is insane.
 
Republicans Shut Down the Federal Government Again & Suffer Humiliating Defeat

scooter, our economy has always been reliant on cheap labor. It’s really hard to take people seriously when they don’t know basic facts about their own country.

No idea where that $71K figure comes from. I do know it costs much more to keep undocumented immigrants in camps than it does for them to work, get paid, and buy things and pay taxes for services they can’t use.
 
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PhDeac said:
scooter, our economy has always been reliant on cheap labor. It’s really hard to take people seriously when they don’t know basic facts about their own country.
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Ph - maybe you are an OK dude in person, I don't know, but I can't stand your persona here. Of course we have always been dependent on 'cheap labor', you arrogant prick. Cheap labor is different from sub-minimum wages paid to undocumented workers. I was suggesting that maybe we need to adjust the economy to reflect the true cost of producing things - something I would think you would be in favor of.

I don't really give a crap whether you take me seriously or not -why don't you just ignore my posts, I wasn't talking to you anyway.
 
RJKarl said:
This shows that you stop "reading" those sources. Think about that for a minute. There are 11,000,000 undocumented people in the US. Now multiply that by $71,000 each. That equals over $781BILLION which would be about 15% of our total federal budget.

Also think about $6000 per month per undocumented person. How could we be spending that much? What are they getting? That number is insane.
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I said I don't believe the stats I read - this is why. They were probably including things like public education, etc... Who knows?
 
How is cheap labor different from paying sub-minimum wages to undocumented workers?

I’m all for changing the economy to actually pay all workers enough to live and move up the economic ladder. That wasn’t clear from your posts. You’re doing the whole “aw shucks, I just want to know the truth but I don’t know basic facts and I’m critical of anything you tell me different from what I believe.” It’s tiring.
 
PhDeac said:
How is cheap labor different from paying sub-minimum wages to undocumented workers?

I’m all for changing the economy to actually pay all workers enough to live and move up the economic ladder. That wasn’t clear from your posts. You’re doing the whole “aw shucks, I just want to know the truth but I don’t know basic facts and I’m critical of anything you tell me different from what I believe.” It’s tiring.
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Cheap labor could be "normal" minimum wage labor. That is not the same as under the table, sub minimum wage, no benefits, slave-like undocumented workers.

That is how you interpret what I am posting - that is on you. I know lots of stuff. But I also know that there are tons of areas where I am woefully uninformed. That is why I ask questions. I don't think I have really been critical of answers I have received. I try to come to the tunnels every few months to learn from other perspectives but every time I do I end up defending myself.

I have really appreciated IAT's input and think I have learned some stuff but I think I am just going to go back to the sports board, or maybe the chat thread where people just make fun of me for living in Cary.
 
scooter84 said:
I said I don't believe the stats I read - this is why. They were probably including things like public education, etc... Who knows?
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The fact you are reading such sites is a problem.

As to public education, give me a break! The families of undocumented people pay rent which pays real estate taxes and pays for schools.

Why do keep trying to find excuses for inane concepts?

AGAIN, if they paid for EVERY kid in America to go to public school (which is almost paid locally), it would likely not be the $781 BILLION your crazy $71K/person you keep trying to defend.
 
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