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Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

The decision regarding abortion is best decided by the citizens of the United States. Given the current legislatures in power on a federal and state level, the best opportunity to make abortion legal would be through referendums in each state. Giving each man and woman the right to express their opinion with a vote, either for or against, seems the only way to eliminate the nonsense that comes with politics. Unfortunately, a national referendum seems impossible. If 60% of the population truly prefers to legalize abortion, referendums would show the will of the people. Passage in the US congress would be more likely thereafter. I suspect the turnout to vote on this issue would be high.
 
Democrats are afraid to eliminate the filibuster to save abortion because Republicans will use the eliminated filibuster to end abortion even though 50+ Republicans could eliminate the filibuster as well.
 
I have no doubt McConnell would break his word, turn around and remove the filibuster as soon as he could. That said there is nothing in that article that hints at that at all. McConnell is straight up quoted saying he wouldn't remove the filibuster to make a federal ban. Silly tweet.

The whole "states rights!" argument already turning into a push for a federal ban is pretty on brand though for the Republicans.
 
 
They’re afraid of Republicans going after them like DeSantis did Disney.

It’s pretty funny. Big business is afraid of speaking up for fear Republicans will get rid of the tax breaks and cushy crony capitalism progressives actually want to get rid of.
 
WakeForestRanger said:

In the current climate I seriously doubt that most large corporations will be able to get away with saying nothing if Roe is actually overturned, especially given that they would almost certainly face a massive social media backlash from their employees similar to the one Disney faced.
 
PhDeac said:
They’re afraid of Republicans going after them like DeSantis did Disney.

It’s pretty funny. Big business is afraid of speaking up for fear Republicans will get rid of the tax breaks and cushy crony capitalism progressives actually want to get rid of.
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Plus, they would get compared unfavorable to any corporation that supported overturning Roe v Wade, and get the exact same backlash.
 
wakegrrl said:
Absolutely this. So damn frustrating.

And if Roe is overturned, then line up the other cases based on privacy rights. Because at that point, if pro-abortion/pro-choice people won’t stand up for Roe, why in the hell would they be expected to stand up for Obergefell? Or Griswold? Or Loving?
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People like j h m d can’t wait to overturn Loving
 
Highland Deac said:
In the current climate I seriously doubt that most large corporations will be able to get away with saying nothing if Roe is actually overturned, especially given that they would almost certainly face a massive social media backlash from their employees similar to the one Disney faced.
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I don’t understand why people feel the need to have corporations comment on hot button political issues. If anything, demanding they say something and threatening boycotts only plays into the Republicans hands.
 
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PhDeac said:
Then it wouldn’t be a wedge issue. Abortion laws were generally what you said but Republicans have been moving further toward outright ban and garnered support by using absolutist terms.
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It's not accurate to say abortion laws were generally what I said. Abortion laws in the US tend to be more liberal in terms of gestational limits than the significant majority of the developed world. And in some states, like Vermont, there are no gestational limits at all. And the pro-life crowd uses these facts to push very hard on Roe and does so in a disingenuous way. They give you the headline but provide none of the nuance. On the flip side the most strident of the pro-choice crowd frames any attack on abortion rights as an assault on women. They don't want to shine a light on the fact that we have abortion laws that are off base with the rest of the developed world precisely bc they've fought very hard to get those laws on the books.

I literally just watched Tapper interview a state Governor and then a Senator on opposite sides of this issue. Neither one framed the discussion to meet the nation where public opinion (which is highly settled rests). The Governor of MS comes from a state with a trigger law that will go into effect automatically and ban almost all abortions if Roe is overturned. He steps up and states abortion laws in the US are out of line with the rest of the developed world. He's largely right. What he of course fails to say is that the trigger law in his state is way out of line with the abortion laws in the developed world (to the other side). It's disingenuous. Then the Senator from MI comes on and again talks in super broad strokes in the other direction in a likewise summary and disingenuous manner. Talks about "codifying" Roe are meaningless unless you discuss what it actually means. The vast majority of Americans don't support laws that allow late term abortions and yet many states have used Roe to create them. Both the GOP and the Dems play to the "base".

There's all this discussion about the "two Americas" when discussing abortion. And yet here we sit with public opinion that has been done a settled for 30 years. You can't get 60+ percent of the public to agree on almost anything. And yet no one when framing this debate does so in a way that reflects actual public opinion. It's insane.
 
DeacMan said:
It's not accurate to say abortion laws were generally what I said. Abortion laws in the US tend to be more liberal in terms of gestational limits than the significant majority of the developed world. And in some states, like Vermont, there are no gestational limits at all. And the pro-life crowd uses these facts to push very hard on Roe and does so in a disingenuous way. They give you the headline but provide none of the nuance. On the flip side the most strident of the pro-choice crowd frames any attack on abortion rights as an assault on women. They don't want to shine a light on the fact that we have abortion laws that are off base with the rest of the developed world precisely bc they've fought very hard to get those laws on the books.

I literally just watched Tapper interview a state Governor and then a Senator on opposite sides of this issue. Neither one framed the discussion to meet the nation where public opinion (which is highly settled rests). The Governor of MS comes from a state with a trigger law that will go into effect automatically and ban almost all abortions if Roe is overturned. He steps up and states abortion laws in the US are out of line with the rest of the developed world. He's largely right. What he of course fails to say is that the trigger law in his state is way out of line with the abortion laws in the developed world (to the other side). It's disingenuous. Then the Senator from MI comes on and again talks in super broad strokes in the other direction in a likewise summary and disingenuous manner. Talks about "codifying" Roe are meaningless unless you discuss what it actually means. The vast majority of Americans don't support laws that allow late term abortions and yet many states have used Roe to create them. Both the GOP and the Dems play to the "base".

There's all this discussion about the "two Americas" when discussing abortion. And yet here we sit with public opinion that has been done a settled for 30 years. You can't get 60+ percent of the public to agree on almost anything. And yet no one when framing this debate does so in a way that reflects actual public opinion. It's insane.
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well stated and good points.
 
Les Grossman said:
I don’t understand why people feel the need to have corporations comment on hot button political issues. If anything, demanding they say something and threatening boycotts only plays into the Republicans hands.
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Maybe, but it's not so much just "people" who are demanding that corporations speak out, it's their own employees, and that's rather hard for them ignore. Disney finally spoke out about the "Don't Say Gay" law because a large number of their employees are LGBTQ and they pressured them to speak out. It may or may not be effective, but if Roe is overturned there is going to be lots of pressure from women working in these corporations to speak out, whether it's effective or not. That's just the world we live in today.
 
Dems appear to be doing a better (not great) job of explaining why abortion is often needed for health care reasons. Of course, the explanation comes after Roe is about to be overturned.
 
Abortion is a major labor issue (no pun intended). Corporations should have a say about government forcing half their workers to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth. Forced pregnancy would result in more time off, more family leave time, and more career disruption.

Even if there isn’t a national ban, corporations face employees needing to travel out of state for what was previously a local outpatient procedure which would require more days off and more disruptions.
 
PhDeac said:
Abortion is a major labor issue (no pun intended). Corporations should have a say about government forcing half their workers to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth. Forced pregnancy would result in more time off, more family leave time, and more career disruption.

Even if there isn’t a national ban, corporations face employees needing to travel out of state for what was previously a local outpatient procedure which would require more days off and more disruptions.
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In the only major country without paid family leave. Gotta love it!
 
You know, it's almost as if this isn't just about abortion rights for the GOP, but going backwards on sexual topics as a whole. Abstinence and purity for the win, baby!

 
Highland Deac said:
Maybe, but it's not so much just "people" who are demanding that corporations speak out, it's their own employees, and that's rather hard for them ignore. Disney finally spoke out about the "Don't Say Gay" law because a large number of their employees are LGBTQ and they pressured them to speak out. It may or may not be effective, but if Roe is overturned there is going to be lots of pressure from women working in these corporations to speak out, whether it's effective or not. That's just the world we live in today.
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I think the calculus for most corporations extends beyond employees (who I agree have a big influence) and rests even more with their customer bases. Disney probably more than most consumer brands is going to be inclined to walk a hyper fine line and do it in different ways in different markets as well. What a company sells, to whom and where and with what market share in various locations drives the positions you see them take. A company that sells industrial products to other corporate buyers primarily in geography A generally has a lot less calculus to do than a global consumer product brand like Coca-Cola who has even less calculus to do than a global entertainment brand like Disney.

And those are definitely the two constituencies that drive the vast majority of outside influence on positions companies take on social issues.
 
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