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Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
So then do you have a problem with the killing of the you at 2 days old, if the existence of said you still has not developed?

The Dems just need to make the argument transparent and it is much easier to justify. "You all did not care about people dying from Covid because you were inconvenienced getting a shot. We don't care about fetuses dying because the mother will be inconvenienced by having a kid. Either way it is their own choice and deal with the results, but it is the same convenience over life sentiment on both sides. Admit it, stfu, and move on."

It is much easier to stop dancing around the theological bullshit, admit the reality of your position, and deal with it despite the internal morality flaws you are trying to fight.
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“Convenience over life”? Dude, you are fucking cruel and criminally uninformed. How DARE you judge. The Republican Party, in particular the loudmouth self-loathing evangelical set, does absolutely nothing to help women or families, particularly BIPOC who find themselves pregnant and do not have the resources I am privileged to have. Just admit you get off on having this kind of control.
 
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Birdman’s story about the Catholic Church refusing his mother a funeral seems to indicate it’s real feelings about a fetus.
 
There's quite a bit of absolutist conjecture being expressed on this thread by a few of you. All Dems believe X. All Reps believe Y. That's not at all reflective of the broader public.

Here's some math from a recent Pew poll. It points to a public that seems quite ready to have a national law passed - one that likely would be in line with the vast majority of the developed world.

In 1995 60% of the American public believed abortion should be legal in most cases. As of two weeks ago that number sits at 61%. That's 30 years where not much has shifted.

Just 36% of Americans have given significant consideration to their views on the issue. That's an awful lot of Americans who really don't think about this much.

Only 8% of Americans say they would ban abortion in all instances.

64% of Americans support gestational limits on abortion (although this includes the 8% who say it should be illegal in all instances - so you could say it is 56%). And this gels with other math that shows 34% want no gestational limits on abortion (i.e. 61% of Americans ID as supporters legal abortion and of those people 56% would place no gestational limits on it = 61x.56 = 34%)

73% of Americans of say if the woman's life is in danger abortion should be legal in all instances. Another 14% say "it depends". So 87% of Americans are in this column to some degree.

69% of Americans say if the woman was raped abortion should be legal. Another 15% say "it depends". So 84% of Americans are in this column to some degree.

53% of Americans say if the baby would have health complications abortion should be legal. Another 25% say "it depends". So 78% of Americans are in this column to some degree.

Seems pretty obvious if a law were put forward that allowed abortion until say somewhere between the 16th and 22nd week of pregnancy and also allowed it more broadly in cases of rape, incest, threats to health of Mom or baby it would get broad public support. And yet the debates tend to be painted in very stark and absolutist terms. It's hard to find issues with this much public agreement that have been somewhat constant over a period of 30 years.
 
Then it wouldn’t be a wedge issue. Abortion laws were generally what you said but Republicans have been moving further toward outright ban and garnered support by using absolutist terms.
 
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Yeah, that poll says that only 8% of Americans support banning abortion in all instances, yet that's exactly what many of these red-state legislatures are getting ready to do, or have already done. It's simply a fact that most GOP legislatures in red states are passing some draconian laws banning all abortions, no matter what the polls say or their state's citizens think about the issue. I suppose the best you can say is that what GOP legislatures and governors are doing regarding rape, incest, or the mother's life being in danger isn't where most Republicans in their state stand on the issue, but that's basically irrelevant given that these same Republicans will just keep voting these legislatures and governors passing these absolutist laws back into power.
 
Yeah that’s pretty much a good run down of rule by a minority majority. Through the large swath of bullshit that our system is set up upon like gerrymandering, voter restrictions, but also just the foundational nature of the system where it’s not proportional representation. We have a minority that has basically militant religious views on abortion representing 15-20% of the nation and they get to dictate laws for others.
 
If the republican legislators face no back lash from going too far - I.e lose votes then polls don't really matter. They'll continue to push ahead. And a large percentage, if not all, Republicans won't ever consider changing their vote because of it. It's just the cost of doing business. It's frustrating and impressive how lock step Rebulican voters really are. They're really more of an Anti- Democrat party than a pro Republican party.
 
BacktoBack said:
If the republican legislators face no back lash from going too far - I.e lose votes then polls don't really matter. They'll continue to push ahead. And a large percentage, if not all, Republicans won't ever consider changing their vote because of it. It's just the cost of doing business. It's frustrating and impressive how lock step Rebulican voters really are. They're really more of an Anti- Democrat party than a pro Republican party.
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Absolutely this. So damn frustrating.

And if Roe is overturned, then line up the other cases based on privacy rights. Because at that point, if pro-abortion/pro-choice people won’t stand up for Roe, why in the hell would they be expected to stand up for Obergefell? Or Griswold? Or Loving?
 
2&2 can you provide an example of any american that was forced to get a vaccine, or any serious person who suggested that anyone who wasn't vaccinated should be criminally prosecuted? thanks I'll hang up and listen.
 
wakegrrl said:
Absolutely this. So damn frustrating.

And if Roe is overturned, then line up the other cases based on privacy rights. Because at that point, if pro-abortion/pro-choice people won’t stand up for Roe, why in the hell would they be expected to stand up for Obergefell? Or Griswold? Or Loving?
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Yep. People who pretend to be for everyone’s rights will find some reason not to show up and vote. Her emails, gas prices, inflation, whatever. It’s frustrating. And then we have to hope the people we vote for to play defense can actually put some points on the board.

wakegrrl said:
And by the way, in case you’re wondering why I’m here, I think y’all need a person with a uterus on this thread.
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Every thread does. Thanks. It’s amazing how much of a sausage fest this board is compared to the Facebook group.
 
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There are fewer abortions now than before row was codified. republicans legislating their insane religious beliefs are always on the wrong side. End sex education? Teen pregnancy goes up.
 
BacktoBack said:
If the republican legislators face no back lash from going too far - I.e lose votes then polls don't really matter. They'll continue to push ahead. And a large percentage, if not all, Republicans won't ever consider changing their vote because of it. It's just the cost of doing business. It's frustrating and impressive how lock step Rebulican voters really are. They're really more of an Anti- Democrat party than a pro Republican party.
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In fairness, if they do not lose votes, they did not go too far.
 
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