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Israel Attacked and its Response

wakelaw13 said:
I'm surprised by the general tone of this thread, especially considering that it was revived following the deliberate murder of hundreds of Israeli citizens by Hamas. It's clear that both sides have unclean hands, but there are tactics used by Hamas that cross a line into totally inexcusable: the indiscriminate shooting of rockets placed in hospitals, schools, and mosques with the intention and goal of having those buildings destroyed as justification for further violence; using woman and children as human shields - think for a moment what would happen if Israel used it's children as human shields against Hamas (hint: the shields would be killed instantly). Both sides are responsible for conduct that I think fairly obviously constitutes war crimes, but I'm only aware of one side actually prosecuting their own soldiers for said crimes.

To make matters more confusing, my friends on the left seem to favor an ideology that is incredibly hostile to many of their fundamental ideals. You would not want your wives, mothers, or sisters to live under the Palestinian regime, would you? What about our gay and lesbian friends? We are talking about a state where 40% of the people believe that suicide bombing is justified under certain circumstances. Am I supposed to ignore the protestors throwing up nazi symbols or chants of "fuck the Jews?" Before I'm shouted down or called names, I am criticizing IDEAS, not a race or ethnic group.

And I wouldn't even say I'm pro-Israel. I'm just surprised by how anti-Israel this thread has become.
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A problem seems to be in whether early reporting of attacks was accurate at all. Nobody here has been anything other than condemning of indiscriminate violence, regardless of party, in my view.

I wouldn’t want to live in Gaza regardless of whether Fatah or Hamas or Netanyahu’s far right or the current Unity party were in charge. That’s not a measuring stick I am comfortable using though.
 
I mean think what you will about the goal of Israel’s armed forces and ethical concerns but they’re killing lots of civilians and torturing many many more right now.
 
6000 bombs in 6 days with no way out, I'm not really here for tone policing.
 
PhDeac said:
US politicians could create a political climate that allowed more criticism of Israel but they won’t.
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Trump could, and it would probably swing him the election. His existing base doesn't give a fuck about Israel or American Jews, and he'd probably pick up a decent number of voters in the middle if he came out hard against Israel, or at least on pulling out all support altogether.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Trump could, and it would probably swing him the election. His existing base doesn't give a fuck about Israel or American Jews, and he'd probably pick up a decent number of voters in the middle if he came out hard against Israel, or at least on pulling out all support altogether.
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Disagree, moving the embassy was a popular move with his evangelical base.
 
wakelaw13 said:
I've read every post on this thread since the latest attack and spent a week reading everything I could on the subject before offering a substantive opinion, which was made in good faith. I don't care for the dismissal of my statements as willfully ignoring others. I understand the concept of what Louis said and I don't think it is an accurate generalization of the thread.

To answer your question, I have never asserted that Israel is without fault. I have never alleged that civilians have not died at the hands of Israeli soldiers or bombs. My point was that there is an ethical difference between the tactics of Hamas and Israel. Only one side of the conflict is actually dissuaded by the presence of human shields. That's where I'm coming from.
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I think where you might be getting some pushback is that this take definitely has a feel of "this conflict only started a week ago". I'm not saying that's where you're coming from and it obviously isn't, but just pointing out how it could read. This is the type of conflict that's so nuanced and complex that you can whatabout it into oblivion. I think where most posters have landed is that arguing over specific actions and events is futile. The root cause of the issue is that a large population of people is being imprisoned, suppressed, and denied statehood. Does this excuse acts of terror being carried out? Of course not. Nobody here is justifying that. Explaining how we got here? Yes, but not justifying it.

And I don't think anyone here is under the delusion that a Palestinian state would be some bastion of non-violence and progressive politics if it weren't for Israel. We wouldn't know one way or the other, and my money would be on it having similar human rights positions as most other Arab states, but like rawarr pointed out an extremely marginalized and suppressed population probably isn't going to trend towards positions we would consider ideal.

To the point about accountability for war crimes being committed you're correct in that actors within Israel are technically more likely to be held accountable for crimes committed, but there are two points in not sure if you're considering: 1) This fact is presented in a way that makes Israeli war crimes more acceptable. A war crime is still a war crime whether someone is prosecuted for it not. That goes for both Hamas and the IDF. 2) The point isn't a fair comparison because there isn't what anybody would consider a functional government present in Palestine, so it's fundamentally flawed. This isn't to say a stable Palestinian government would have some grand track record on dealing with this stuff, but it's not an apples to apples comparison. We should expect Israel to hold war criminals accountable because they have a functioning government and legal system.
 
none of this genocidal behavior in Israel is new, they’ve exported this as a service to foreign intelligence bodies for decades

A thread here about Colombia, but examples throughout Asia and the global south.



US police departments fly in IDF to run their trainings on paramilitary ops. It feels like we only talk about Israel and have the opportunity to morally arbitrate is when they are the aggrieved, but they have spent most of their existence deploying CIA/Chicago School style tactics not just to secure their own existence but because of how they perceive their own moral authority.
 
wakelaw13 said:
My point was that there is an ethical difference between the tactics of Hamas and Israel. Only one side of the conflict is actually dissuaded by the presence of human shields. That's where I'm coming from.
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help me understand why your opinion above doesn't seem to consider the regular, infamous, war crimes and human rights abuses committed by the IDF against Palestinian people? Are you truly ignorant of these atrocities, or do you deny their truth despite immense evidence?

You should take note that both sides of this conflict regularly say in their press releases that they never intend to hurt civilians.
 
wakelaw13 said:
To answer your question, I have never asserted that Israel is without fault. I have never alleged that civilians have not died at the hands of Israeli soldiers or bombs. My point was that there is an ethical difference between the tactics of Hamas and Israel. Only one side of the conflict is actually dissuaded by the presence of human shields. That's where I'm coming from.
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It does not look to me like Israel is even the tiniest bit dissuaded by the presence of human shields. The only difference I can see so far is the technological mechanisms of the violence. Israel is firing missiles and using planes and drones, which entails a physical and psychological distance from the killing, whereas Hamas mostly did it in person with guns. It ends up looking like Hamas is more "barbaric" or ethically evil, but both outcomes are effectively the same.
 
Frosty said:
I think where you might be getting some pushback is that this take definitely has a feel of "this conflict only started a week ago". I'm not saying that's where you're coming from and it obviously isn't, but just pointing out how it could read. This is the type of conflict that's so nuanced and complex that you can whatabout it into oblivion. I think where most posters have landed is that arguing over specific actions and events is futile. The root cause of the issue is that a large population of people is being imprisoned, suppressed, and denied statehood. Does this excuse acts of terror being carried out? Of course not. Nobody here is justifying that. Explaining how we got here? Yes, but not justifying it.

And I don't think anyone here is under the delusion that a Palestinian state would be some bastion of non-violence and progressive politics if it weren't for Israel. We wouldn't know one way or the other, and my money would be on it having similar human rights positions as most other Arab states, but like rawarr pointed out an extremely marginalized and suppressed population probably isn't going to trend towards positions we would consider ideal.

To the point about accountability for war crimes being committed you're correct in that actors within Israel are technically more likely to be held accountable for crimes committed, but there are two points in not sure if you're considering: 1) This fact is presented in a way that makes Israeli war crimes more acceptable. A war crime is still a war crime whether someone is prosecuted for it not. That goes for both Hamas and the IDF. 2) The point isn't a fair comparison because there isn't what anybody would consider a functional government present in Palestine, so it's fundamentally flawed. This isn't to say a stable Palestinian government would have some grand track record on dealing with this stuff, but it's not an apples to apples comparison. We should expect Israel to hold war criminals accountable because they have a functioning government and legal system.
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I think the first two paragraphs are fair. The second sentence of my first post acknowledged that Israel has unclean hands. Maybe that doesn't sound harsh enough, but I quite clearly acknowledged that Israel has committed war crimes. Their war crimes are not less meaningful than those committed by Hamas, and they predate this latest installment of the never ending war. My point was limited to recognizing that there is a different ethical standard on display - NOT that Israel acts ethically all the time and NOT that Israel has not committed atrocities.
 
I think he is saying that on a sliding scale there is a belief that intentionally killing civilians is a Hamas goal while the killing of civilians by Israel is a byproduct. If Israel waved their hand and could eliminate all of Hamas combatants right now they would while if Hamas could waive their hand and eliminate all Jewish combatants as well as, all woman, children, elderly, they would.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Trump could, and it would probably swing him the election. His existing base doesn't give a fuck about Israel or American Jews, and he'd probably pick up a decent number of voters in the middle if he came out hard against Israel, or at least on pulling out all support altogether.
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Man, you do not understand the evangelical crowd at all if you think that this is true.
 
Louis Gossett Jr said:
I think he is saying that on a sliding scale there is a belief that intentionally killing civilians is a Hamas goal while the killing of civilians by Israel is a byproduct. If Israel waved their hand and could eliminate all of Hamas combatants right now they would while if Hamas could waive their hand and eliminate all Jewish combatants as well as, all woman, children, elderly, they would.
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Didn't the president of Israel literally say there are no innocent people in Gaza?

With that in mind, I don't think what you are saying here is true at all
 
Louis Gossett Jr said:
I think he is saying that on a sliding scale there is a belief that intentionally killing civilians is a Hamas goal while the killing of civilians by Israel is a byproduct. If Israel waved their hand and could eliminate all of Hamas combatants right now they would while if Hamas could waive their hand and eliminate all Jewish combatants as well as, all woman, children, elderly, they would.
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This is fairly accurate, especially the second sentence. I would not use the word "byproduct," both because the death of a civilian on either side is equally tragic and because I know that Israel has intentionally targeted civilians in the past.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
You think they wouldn't still vote for him?
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Now, this is a completely different argument, and one that's probably a little more up in the air given how they look past all his other bullshit. I'm not sure even the whole imperfect vessel argument could get them to look past abandoning the holy land though.
 
wakelaw13 said:
Yes I did. I think Israel is responsible for many civilian deaths, but the civilian deaths were not the intended goal of the attack. I know that Israel has warned and evacuated buildings before bombing them. I have not ever heard of Hamas doing that. Israeli soldiers have been responsible for war crimes and actually prosecuted. When has Hamas prosecuted one of their soldiers for a war crime? They haven't, because killing civilians is the point.

If you cannot see an ethical difference between the tactics of the two groups, even after what just happened a week ago, I don't think we need to engage further.
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1)Many of Israel's warnings were never intended to be realistic (ex: "Evacuate all of northern Gaza").
2)A hypothetical similar warning from Hamas would, in many circles, be considered a terrorist threat that would warrant immediate preemptive action on Israel's part.
 
I saw a stat on twitter a couple days ago that this conflict is heavily skewed towards civilian casualties on both sides. Neither side seems to show too much restraint on that front. Over 50% of all deaths in the last two decades in the conflict have been civilian casualties and both Israeli and Palestinians killed are over 50% civilians
 
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