Do negative fans hurt the basketball program?

[blackgold]

Define Wake Foresty.

Grobe, Skip etc have taken a different approach to coaching. I always considered their approach to be more "Wake Foresty".

 

[dartsndeacs]

You don't hold a coach at all responsible for the actions of his players? I'm not saying Bzz is fully responsible, but much of this trouble didn't seem to happen until Bzz got here and made it known he was looking to clean house. I'm not surprised some young adults acted out in that situation when they may have been kept in check by a different coach. We'll never really know, but I have a hard time not assigning at least some of the cause to the coach, if not the blame.

Bzz seems to have a hands off approach towards his players (perhaps a more NBA like approach), assuming they should take care of everything that doesn't involve the basketball court, and even there, his job is just to tell them the right way to do something and expect them to figure out how to do it. Grobe, Skip etc have taken a different approach to coaching. I always considered their approach to be more "Wake Foresty".

In my four years 99-03 One of the players used to sell my buddies pot and another got kicked outta Daytonas the night before graduation for packing heat.

Its possible Skip had his players on a tight leash and its possible he didn't but shit just didn't cause a public problem.

And no, I don't hold bzz responsible for a guy hitting his girlfriend, drinking and driving or stealing an iPod. The kids did that themselves and how on earth do you propose to have a head basketball coach monitor what college kids do at 11PM. We don't know whether to even blame Dino because I have no clue what anyone knew of the kids before they got here.

Of the three offenses, the only one I didn't do while in college was beating up my girlfriend. Had I been a basketball player, I wouldn't have thought my basketball coach to be responsible for my actions. I was drunk and in my early twenties, shiat happens.

 

[RacerDeac]

Once again you couldn't be any more wrong.

TONY WOODS- we knew he had anger problems in HS-his actions happened before his first practice- not at all [Redacted]'s fault.

ARI - His problems were 100% self-inflicted. [Redacted] everyone and anyone close to Ari to try to get him to come around. They did everything but get on their knees and beg him.

MELVIN - Never grew up. The staff came up with the BS "mono" excuse to cover for Melvin's laziness and childish behavior. [Redacted] should have gotten rid of him sooner rather than giving him more chances.

JT - Was a sad situation. Everyone thoguht he had bought into the program more than almost anyone else. He had changed his game dramatically and was studying.

You think that Bzz has the same coaching philosophy as Skip? As Grobe? You think these players see Bzz as a father figure?

Obviously Woods is an outlier. I said "much of this trouble", not ALL. Reading, it's what's for dinner.

The others are certainly issues that may or may not have turned out differently given a different coach. From the outside (the same perspective you have...you have no damn idea how much time Bzz invested into Ari), Bzz appears far less invested in his players than other coaches we've had or have. Evidenced by their interaction with him on the sidelines, his speaking about them after games, the quotes about how they "just don't get it" even though he has shown them what to do, and the lack of buy-in that the players above exhibited. That's an observed opinion held by more than a few Wake fans. Arguing that "it can't be more wrong" is the height of arrogance.

 

[wakephan09]

You can't blame anybody but these kids (and perhaps their parents) for this stuff. Even if a coach has a zero-tolerance policy on these sorts of troubles, that doesn't mean that that they aren't going to do it!

Packing heat and selling drugs and stealing are (usually) against the law, and that doesn't stop them from doing it. Why are we naive enough to think that a team rule or coaching would?

The only solution is to recruit well-behaved kids. I think that is what this 'culture change' is all about.

 

[RacerDeac]

And no, I don't hold bzz responsible for a guy hitting his girlfriend, drinking and driving or stealing an iPod. The kids did that themselves and how on earth do you propose to have a head basketball coach monitor what college kids do at 11PM.

In that case, no college head coach should ever lose his job because his players are involved with agents, drugs, cheating, etc. And no CEO should ever lose his job for failures of his employees. That's just not reality, even in our individualistic society.

 

[RacerDeac]

You can't blame anybody but these kids (and perhaps their parents) for this stuff. Even if a coach has a zero-tolerance policy on these sorts of troubles, that doesn't mean that that they aren't going to do it!

I have a zero tolerance policy for my son on some things. It's still partially my responsibility when he does them. My responsibility extends beyond establishing a zero tolerance policy. I don't think Bzz necessarily believes that his does.

 

[RJKarl]

You think that Bzz has the same coaching philosophy as Skip? As Grobe? You think these players see Bzz as a father figure?

Obviously Woods is an outlier. I said "much of this trouble", not ALL. Reading, it's what's for dinner.

The others are certainly issues that may or may not have turned out differently given a different coach. From the outside (the same perspective you have...you have no damn idea how much time Bzz invested into Ari), Bzz appears far less invested in his players than other coaches we've had or have. Evidenced by their interaction with him on the sidelines, his speaking about them after games, the quotes about how they "just don't get it" even though he has shown them what to do, and the lack of buy-in that the players above exhibited. That's an observed opinion held by more than a few Wake fans. Arguing that "it can't be more wrong" is the height of arrogance.

Actually I do have an excellent idea, from a totally unimpeachable source, how much time [Redacted] and the staff invested in Ari and Melvin.

Once again you are completley wrogn and equally unwilling to admit even the possibility of your lack of knowledge.

 

[Milhouse]

tabb didn't have mono and the coaching staff made it up to cover for him? is this true?

 

[deacvision7]

Even good kids make stupid mistakes.

 

[Kent]

However, I am totally buying this culture change motivation, and in the end, if I had to choose between sporting success and the academic integrity of Wake Forest, I would take the latter each and every time.

I agree with much of your posts above regarding why people defend Buzz.

And I generally agree with the above. However, I don't think it has to be an either/or, and I think the administration is using the culture argument conveniently (which is not to say there isn't an element of truth to it) to reverse engineer an epic fuck-up into some semblance of an intentional plan.

 

[RacerDeac]

The only solution is to recruit well-behaved kids. I think that is what this 'culture change' is all about.

Disagree. I'm all for recruiting good kids. But the coach still has some responsibility towards helping them navigate what it means to be an 18-22 year old college student and athlete while staying away from potential pitfalls. Recruiting kids that you think have good character (impossible to get it right all of the time) is only a portion of the equation.

 

[Liquid Karma]

The only solution is to recruit well-behaved kids. I think that is what this 'culture change' is all about.

What's the next piece of revisionist bullshit going to be when a Bzzz recruit finds themselves in trouble with the law?

 

[RJKarl]

Kent, I think Wellman saw a lot (not all) of the problems coming and increasing.

They also made plays for at least one other coach (I think more than one).

[Redacted] was no one's first choice, but we have him.

If you have anything like an open mind you have to be enthused and encouraged by the loyalty and excitment of this incoming class. It also disproved the premise that he can't recruit.

Many times you have to clean house before starting over.

The jury is still out on how he will do with the new level of talent, but given the fact he will be here (unless a great pro opportunity takes him away), there is no upside in constant vitriolic, often irrational and sometimes hate-filled threads.

They do no good and have no potentially good impact.

If he fails with this new group, everyone will agree he should be gone.

 

[RacerDeac]

Actually I do have an excellent idea, from a totally unimpeachable source, how much time [Redacted] and the staff invested in Ari and Melvin.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and just assume you're not full of shit (you do realize that some of the inside sources you parrot around are the same people that many of us have beers with multiple Saturday's a year outside of Groves stadium, right?)...investing time doesn't necessarily mean anything. Over and over Bzz has said and done things that indicate that he knows what he is talking about regarding basketball without being able to get his players to put it into practice on the court. Bzz may have invested hours in the gym trying to get Ari to "get it" when all he really needed to do was sit down and talk to the guy on his office couch 15 minutes a couple times a week. I honestly think Bzz knows basketball. I don't think he knows much at all about being a coach to 18-22 year old young men in college.

 

[CharmCityDeac]

Geez. . .I actually agree with RJ on this one. No basketball coach--anywhere--should be judged on a season and a half--particularly when we've had the kind of turnover we've had. [Redacted] is going to be here for at least two more seasons. It might be fun to rip him up one side and down the other--but it certainly isn't helpful. Not now.

And another thing--I think a lot of Wake fans are completely delusional in terms of what kind of coach we could attract. Brad Stevens, Shaka Smart, etc. are not walking through that door. We will always be a distant third (and more likely fourth) in terms of basketball history, fan base support, press coverage, recruiting prestige, etc.--IN OUR OWN STATE. That's simply unheard of for a major BCS conference program. Wake is one of the toughest jobs in the country--football, basketball, whatever. We have no natural recruiting base, we have to take kids the Carolinas and Dukes of the world don't want. That's the way it is at Wake. No coach will ever change that.

 

[dartsndeacs]

In that case, no college head coach should ever lose his job because his players are involved with agents, drugs, cheating, etc. And no CEO should ever lose his job for failures of his employees. That's just not reality, even in our individualistic society.

It seems clear that Wellman did fire a coach because of his players actions. As to whether he or Bzz is responsible I have NFI.

 

[wakephan09]

I have a zero tolerance policy for my son on some things. It's still partially my responsibility when he does them. My responsibility extends beyond establishing a zero tolerance policy. I don't think Bzz necessarily believes that his does.

Agreed, but there are very different responsibilities that come with being a parent of children than with being the coach of young adults.

Even good kids make stupid mistakes.

Agreed. Nearly every single kid that made a 'mistake' in the last few years got a second chance.

I agree with much of your posts above regarding why people defend Buzz.

And I generally agree with the above. However, I don't think it has to be an either/or, and I think the administration is using the culture argument conveniently (which is not to say there isn't an element of truth to it) to reverse engineer an epic fuck-up into some semblance of an intentional plan.

I agree with this, as well. However, I don't buy the 'culture' argument as an excuse for the fuck-up(s), but rather as Wellman and Hatch slowly cleaning things up (especially in the wake of Carolina and Miami's recent issues). And I am talking about over all of our programs. The more I think about it, more kids have been cleared out of programs, more coaches dismissed for reasons other than poor coaching.

Had Buzz's tenure gone smoothly, I doubt they would have mentioned it at all.

Disagree. I'm all for recruiting good kids. But the coach still has some responsibility towards helping them navigate what it means to be an 18-22 year old college student and athlete while staying away from potential pitfalls. Recruiting kids that you think have good character (impossible to get it right all of the time) is only a portion of the equation.

Admittedly, my perspective may be skewed from my own experience: Each and every one of the coaches that I have served under from the club to high school to collegiate levels have put the responsibility to stay out of trouble solely on the athlete.

In my opinion, it is the parent's job to teach the kids how to act, Student Athlete Services' job to keep their academics in line while at school, and the coaches job to coach. That doesn't mean that he can't mentor a student-athlete or maintain a teaching role that extends beyond sport, but the problems that our athlete's have had over the past few years can not be put on the coach in any way except for that they were recruited in the first place.

I think Wake Forest has, and should continue, to put a great deal of emphasis on the character of the athletes that we recruit. I think that is what the culture change is about.

 

[RJKarl]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and just assume you're not full of shit (you do realize that some of the inside sources you parrot around are the same people that many of us have beers with multiple Saturday's a year outside of Groves stadium, right?)...

I can tell you absolutely that the information I got regarding Ari (and some about Melvin) was NOT shared over beers at Groves.

investing time doesn't necessarily mean anything.

In these cases it absolutely does matter.

Over and over Bzz has said and done things that indicate that he knows what he is talking about regarding basketball without being able to get his players to put it into practice on the court. Bzz may have invested hours in the gym trying to get Ari to "get it" when all he really needed to do was sit down and talk to the guy on his office couch 15 minutes a couple times a week.

You really need to stop talking like this. You couldn't be more wrong or farther offbase about Ari. You just don't kn wo what yo uare talking about and an internet board is nev er the place to discuss such problems.


I honestly think Bzz knows basketball. I don't think he knows much at all about being a coach to 18-22 year old young men in college.

....

 

[RacerDeac]

We will always be a distant third (and more likely fourth) in terms of basketball history, fan base support, press coverage, recruiting prestige, etc.--IN OUR OWN STATE. That's simply unheard of for a major BCS conference program. Wake is one of the toughest jobs in the country--football, basketball, whatever. We have no natural recruiting base, we have to take kids the Carolinas and Dukes of the world don't want. That's the way it is at Wake. No coach will ever change that.

Gotta disagree. Even as 3rd or 4th in the State, we're very much a respected program nationally. We have gone head to head for the best recruits in the nation and come out on top. Football is one story...basketball is absolutely a different one. LOWF is alive and well. Toughest jobs in the country in basketball? Yeah, right.

 

[wakephan09]

What's the next piece of revisionist bullshit going to be when a Bzzz recruit finds themselves in trouble with the law?

Then it is partially Buzz's fault for recruiting them and mostly the kid's fault for doing something stupid. Plain and simple.

I am in no way a revisionist, and my opinions are based on my own experiences and observations.

You may disagree all you want, but that doesn't make me a revisionist.

ETA: Further, what you obviously can't see past your distaste for the man, is that I am in no way defending him. I am not a 'Buzz-Inner' by any stretch of your imagination.