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A college degree is a lousy investment

How would you feel if you rode the bus for 3 years and worked your butt off to save up money to buy a car for cash while your friend took out a huge loan to buy a car he probably couldn't really afford and then the government came along and just forgave his loan? I guess you'd just be really happy for him?

Yes.

An “unaffordable” education is one of the last methods of intergenerational social mobility the boomers have left the rest of us.

How would you feel if you were able to pay for college by working summer jobs while someone else had to take out massive loans to get the same level of education?
 
Yes.

An “unaffordable” education is one of the last methods of intergenerational social mobility the boomers have left the rest of us.

How would you feel if you were able to pay for college by working summer jobs while someone else had to take out massive loans to get the same level of education?

TITCR

The boomers are the worst generation. Children of segregationists, beneficiaries of the strongest welfare state in US history, champions of fiscal conservativism that aimed to destroy the same welfare state that helped them maintain the wealth their parents built, regressive fascists in old age, and demographic time bomb as they ungracefully march towards the end of their lifespans, which just happen to be the longest in human history. Fuck boomers.
 
Their lifespans are the longest. Meanwhile increasing mortality rates among whites are mostly among youngest boomers and older Gen X and it doesn’t look to be slowing down.
 
Yes.

An “unaffordable” education is one of the last methods of intergenerational social mobility the boomers have left the rest of us.

How would you feel if you were able to pay for college by working summer jobs while someone else had to take out massive loans to get the same level of education?

I don't understand the position you are taking or your question. I was simply providing an analogy to explain why some people might feel a little bitter if student loans were wiped out. I think it is an understandable feeling.

While there are probably actions that could or should be taken to address the student loan situation, creating new taxes to wipe out debt that people have voluntarily taken on sounds pretty outrageous to me.
 
Their lifespans are the longest. Meanwhile increasing mortality rates among whites are mostly among youngest boomers and older Gen X and it doesn’t look to be slowing down.

Maybe that isn't a bad thing... Millennials and Gen Y/Z are innovating and reforming the hell out of society right now while Boomers are clutching their pearls and figuring out how to squeeze every last drop of blood out of the societal stone on their ways out.
 
You don’t understand the problem yet you’re fine with not addressing it to appeal to petty jealousy and lack of empathy.

Warren’s wealth tax won’t harm anybody but the revenue could unlock the economy for everyone.
 
You don’t understand the problem yet you’re fine with not addressing it to appeal to petty jealousy and lack of empathy.

Warren’s wealth tax won’t harm anybody but the revenue could unlock the economy for everyone.

I didn't say I didn't understand the problem. I said I didn't understand your position or your question.

You said "An “unaffordable” education is one of the last methods of intergenerational social mobility the boomers have left the rest of us." That is some social-science double-talk BS right there and I have no idea what it means.

You asked "How would you feel if you were able to pay for college by working summer jobs while someone else had to take out massive loans to get the same level of education?" I don't how to react to that. I would feel pretty good about being able to pay for my education. As for the other part I would need a lot more information before I could answer that. Define "had to" - what is the difference in our situations that allowed me to pay for college by working summers while they "had to" take out "massive loans" for the same education?

I had Bernie's plan in mind when I was commenting, not Warren's.

Using 'petty jealousy' and 'lack of empathy' to describe my analogy are a gross mischaracterization. Students have been harmed by predatory loans and misleading messaging. Many have also been lazy and made bad decisions. I feel bad for all of them. But that doesn't mean I think we should make up new taxes to bail them out. More taxes are not the answer to every problem - shocking, I know.

My daughter is paying back student loans for her grad school. She also worked throughout to keep those loans to a minimum and made sure her degree would lead to an improved financial position down the road.
 
I didn't say I didn't understand the problem. I said I didn't understand your position or your question.

You said "An “unaffordable” education is one of the last methods of intergenerational social mobility the boomers have left the rest of us." That is some social-science double-talk BS right there and I have no idea what it means.

You asked "How would you feel if you were able to pay for college by working summer jobs while someone else had to take out massive loans to get the same level of education?" I don't how to react to that. I would feel pretty good about being able to pay for my education. As for the other part I would need a lot more information before I could answer that. Define "had to" - what is the difference in our situations that allowed me to pay for college by working summers while they "had to" take out "massive loans" for the same education?

I had Bernie's plan in mind when I was commenting, not Warren's.

Using 'petty jealousy' and 'lack of empathy' to describe my analogy are a gross mischaracterization. Students have been harmed by predatory loans and misleading messaging. Many have also been lazy and made bad decisions. I feel bad for all of them. But that doesn't mean I think we should make up new taxes to bail them out. More taxes are not the answer to every problem - shocking, I know.

Actually, since answers to social problems (such as the predatory student loan industry and associated debt) usually require federal, state, or municipal funding more taxes are almost always the answer to every problem.

Or...we can wait for students to default and the economy to tank, which will require tax dollars to fix anyway.

I feel like this board could use an updated civics class.
 
“Intergenerational social mobility” is not social science BS. That is basic English. You’re not dumb. Don’t act like it to score points. If you want me to treat you like a dumb rube, I can do it. I’d rather treat you like well educated person trying to have a productive discussion of the facts.

Higher education is increasingly important and increasingly unaffordable. Blaming students for a social crisis they didn’t create is just ridiculous.
 
“Intergenerational social mobility” is not social science BS. That is basic English. You’re not dumb. Don’t act like it to score points. If you want me to treat you like a dumb rube, I can do it. I’d rather treat you like well educated person trying to have a productive discussion of the facts.

Higher education is increasingly important and increasingly unaffordable. Blaming students for a social crisis they didn’t create is just ridiculous.

You're right, I'm not dumb. But sometimes I feel like I am, or maybe crazy, because I just can't understand where people are coming from with their ideas.

I can figure out what 'intergenerational social mobility" means - I guess it essentially means the ability of children to progress beyond the socio-economic status of their parents?
I guess your sentence is trying to convey the concept that the baby boomer generation has made higher education unaffordable while that same education is the key to that mobility. I was confused by your phrasing and by saying the unaffordable education was one of the 'last' such methods - are you saying there used to be other methods of social mobility that are no longer available?

I just have a hard time getting behind the idea that people should be completely absolved of responsibility for debts they voluntarily took on - unless, of course, there was some kind of fraud or other special factors. I think that, for the discerning student, there are lots of affordable education opportunities. For low income people education is generally available for free or at very low cost - so we are really only talking about kids from a middle class background.

I feel sorry for the person who took out $200k in loans to go to Charlotte law - but I'm not sure what to do about it. Charlotte had some bad practices in giving fake stats for job placements and bar passage rates and the like - I think those kids should have known better, they took out the loans voluntarily, but they were also misled. In that case, the company that owned Charlotte law should be responsible, if anyone. I don't know if that is possible. I don't know what ever happened to that company, but, if they went bankrupt, for instance, and can't be held responsible, that doesn't seem fair when the kids with the loans can't avoid the loans by going bankrupt, huh?

On a macro level, what would happen if students could avoid their loans through bankruptcy? I'm assuming that would create greater risk for the entities granting the loans and would drive up interest rates and make the loans harder to obtain? Making the loans harder to get might not be a bad thing? That was the problem with the real estate crisis, right - loans were too easy to get, with no regard for the ability to repay? Would it be possible to include that kind of calculus into the student loan process - likelihood to be able to repay? The analysis would have to include job prospects, potential salary, etc, according to course of study, right?

I'm rambling ... but I agree change is needed in the system but disagree that having the rest of the country pay for the problem through taxes is the solution. Warren's plan is a little more reasonable than Bernie's since the relief is limited to lower-income people and the relief is partial. But in general I'll never understand the constant fascination with taking more money from the "rich".
What if taxed all the university endowments? They're the ones benefiting from these kids getting all these loans... I haven't really thought that through but it just occurred to me.
 
I will respond in more depth later but taxing university endowments isn’t much different than Warren’s wealth tax. It would just tax one place the wealth store their wealth.

And schools like Charlotte Law target low income individuals. All the for profits do. I have no idea where you get the idea that low income people just get college educations for free especially at elite institutions. That’s never been true.
 
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I will respond in more depth later but taxing university endowments isn’t much different than Warren’s wealth tax. It would just tax one place the wealth store their wealth.

And schools like Charlotte Law target low income individuals. All the for profits do. I have no idea where you get the idea that low income people just get college educations for free especially at elite institutions. That’s never been true.

When I say low income people get education for free or at very low cost I am assuming they otherwise qualify for the relevant school. Are you saying that low income kids who get into Wake Forest, or any other similar school, don't get financial aid? Your remark confuses me... There are federal grants and tons of school-specific aid available to kids who can't afford college? Am I wrong about that?
 
That doesn’t mean it’s a full ride or covers the full expense of college or even optional parts of the college experience like joining a Greek organization. Many of those scholarships are based on maintaining a certain GPA so they’re screwed if they have a bad semester.

You make it sound like it’s easy to be poor and move up the ladder when it’s probably the hardest it’s been since the Great Depression.
 
I feel like a better use of the money would be to fund early start though 12th grade education in the country with a focus on vocational training skills.

Then focus on affordable college plans.
 
You're right, I'm not dumb. But sometimes I feel like I am, or maybe crazy, because I just can't understand where people are coming from with their ideas.

I can figure out what 'intergenerational social mobility" means - I guess it essentially means the ability of children to progress beyond the socio-economic status of their parents?
I guess your sentence is trying to convey the concept that the baby boomer generation has made higher education unaffordable while that same education is the key to that mobility. I was confused by your phrasing and by saying the unaffordable education was one of the 'last' such methods - are you saying there used to be other methods of social mobility that are no longer available?

I just have a hard time getting behind the idea that people should be completely absolved of responsibility for debts they voluntarily took on - unless, of course, there was some kind of fraud or other special factors. I think that, for the discerning student, there are lots of affordable education opportunities. For low income people education is generally available for free or at very low cost - so we are really only talking about kids from a middle class background.

I feel sorry for the person who took out $200k in loans to go to Charlotte law - but I'm not sure what to do about it. Charlotte had some bad practices in giving fake stats for job placements and bar passage rates and the like - I think those kids should have known better, they took out the loans voluntarily, but they were also misled. In that case, the company that owned Charlotte law should be responsible, if anyone. I don't know if that is possible. I don't know what ever happened to that company, but, if they went bankrupt, for instance, and can't be held responsible, that doesn't seem fair when the kids with the loans can't avoid the loans by going bankrupt, huh?

On a macro level, what would happen if students could avoid their loans through bankruptcy? I'm assuming that would create greater risk for the entities granting the loans and would drive up interest rates and make the loans harder to obtain? Making the loans harder to get might not be a bad thing? That was the problem with the real estate crisis, right - loans were too easy to get, with no regard for the ability to repay? Would it be possible to include that kind of calculus into the student loan process - likelihood to be able to repay? The analysis would have to include job prospects, potential salary, etc, according to course of study, right?

I'm rambling ... but I agree change is needed in the system but disagree that having the rest of the country pay for the problem through taxes is the solution. Warren's plan is a little more reasonable than Bernie's since the relief is limited to lower-income people and the relief is partial. But in general I'll never understand the constant fascination with taking more money from the "rich".
What if taxed all the university endowments? They're the ones benefiting from these kids getting all these loans... I haven't really thought that through but it just occurred to me.

How did you feel about the GM bailout? Financial institution bailouts? Are you okay with corporate welfare? What about the recent tax cut for the rich?

Taxing income over $50MM per year seems pretty reasonable to me.
 
That doesn’t mean it’s a full ride or covers the full expense of college or even optional parts of the college experience like joining a Greek organization. Many of those scholarships are based on maintaining a certain GPA so they’re screwed if they have a bad semester.

You make it sound like it’s easy to be poor and move up the ladder when it’s probably the hardest it’s been since the Great Depression.

No, no and no. I never said it was easy. And I wasn't talking about scholarships, I was talking about grants and aid. And I wouldn't think a low income person who is looking for aid in order to get an education would be thinking about going greek. Really? I didn't join a fraternity at least partially because I knew my parents were making a sacrifice to send me to college - why would I go spend extra, optional money on top of what it cost to get my education. No one is entitled to any of the 'optional' parts of the college experience. Hell, no one is entitled to college at all. But, there are opportunities for aid for kids who want to work hard to improve themselves and their family situation but can't afford it.
 
How did you feel about the GM bailout? Financial institution bailouts? Are you okay with corporate welfare? What about the recent tax cut for the rich?

Taxing income over $50MM per year seems pretty reasonable to me.

GM went through chapter 11 bankruptcy. the GM that exists now is a legally different GM than pre-recession GM
The government was involved to keep it from going to chapter 7 (which means liquidation) bankruptcy
I think the government put up 50 billion and got back something like 40 billion after the new IPO and subsequent stock sales
In general I'm not a fan of corporate welfare, but given the size of GM and the risk of GM having to liquidate, it was probably a reasonable move. The equity holders lost everything
 
How did you feel about the GM bailout? Financial institution bailouts? Are you okay with corporate welfare? What about the recent tax cut for the rich?

Taxing income over $50MM per year seems pretty reasonable to me.

I was not a fan of the GM bailout or corporate bail-outs in general. I don't have a problem cutting the top marginal rates, as I think our rates are already plenty progressive. I do think there are plenty of loopholes that can still be closed that only those who can afford tax accountants make use of.

Sure, increasing the taxes on income over $50MM per year sounds reasonable - it doesn't impact me or anyone I know so why should I care? It is the principal of the thing that bothers me. Next time it will be income over $25MM, and then $10MM, and then... Why does no one ever, ever talk about the other side of the equation? I want to hear a politician say, you know what, let's cut 10% out of the federal budget - or 20%. Do you believe there is that much waste in our budget? I do.
 
GM went through chapter 11 bankruptcy. the GM that exists now is a legally different GM than pre-recession GM
The government was involved to keep it from going to chapter 7 (which means liquidation) bankruptcy
I think the government put up 50 billion and got back something like 40 billion after the new IPO and subsequent stock sales
In general I'm not a fan of corporate welfare, but given the size of GM and the risk of GM having to liquidate, it was probably a reasonable move. The equity holders lost everything

There's someone that remembered more about how all that played out than I did...
 
How would you feel if you rode the bus for 3 years and worked your butt off to save up money to buy a car for cash while your friend took out a huge loan to buy a car he probably couldn't really afford and then the government came along and just forgave his loan? I guess you'd just be really happy for him?

Not sure why this even requires an analogy. I worked multiple jobs through college and still graduated with mid 5 figure debt, which took me the better part of a decade to pay off. But if my friends who took out more debt than me had their remaining debt forgiven, I'd be happy for them. Or for the next generation of kids for whom college is more expensive. Why would I want everyone to struggle? Because I loved it so much?
 
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