A college degree is a lousy investment

[DeacMan]

Admittedly, I did not complete my thought. My point was that by promoting trades, apprenticeships, and jobs training we can reduce the demand for worthless degrees at overpriced universities. My Uber driver on Thursday is $300K in debt because of a law degree at a soon to be unaccredited law school.

I played football with plenty of guys that started working in various trades right after high school. By the time I finished law school they all owned their own homes and had families. At this point they’re starting to take over the businesses they worked at all with 0 debt.

Yes, but somehow there are a ton of studies that suggest getting a college education regardless of the debt load is still a better investment than not going to college. I don't have data to show whether it is true, but I do wonder if for every person who runs a successful plumbing business with no debt there are dozens of individuals who are stuck working no equity gigs and living pay check to pay check.

 

[PhDeac]

Admittedly, I did not complete my thought. My point was that by promoting trades, apprenticeships, and jobs training we can reduce the demand for worthless degrees at overpriced universities. My Uber driver on Thursday is $300K in debt because of a law degree at a soon to be unaccredited law school.

I played football with plenty of guys that started working in various trades right after high school. By the time I finished law school they all owned their own homes and had families. At this point they’re starting to take over the businesses they worked at all with 0 debt.

Yeah. I’ve made that point several times on this thread with respect to high school career and technical education programs. I published a book and a few articles about it as well.

DeacMan, I don’t know why you ignored what I said about for profits. You’ve also ignored plenty of macro data that’s been posted over years of having these discussions on this thread. You’re also ignoring basic facts that informed people who engage in these conversations already have.

The basic math is that elite private schools giving loans to Black students who are underrepresented in those institutions isn’t the main cause for racial disparities in student loan debt. It’s overall income disparities (basically discrimination in hiring and wages) that render Black graduates less able to pay off those loans. Also Black students are overrepresented at predatory for profit institutions which are basically designed to siphon federal loan money for limited returns.

 

[DeacMan]

Yeah. I’ve made that point several times on this thread with respect to high school career and technical education programs. I published a book and a few articles about it as well.

DeacMan, I don’t know why you ignored what I said about for profits. You’ve also ignored plenty of macro data that’s been posted over years of having these discussions on this thread. You’re also ignoring basic facts that informed people who engage in these conversations already have.

The basic math is that elite private schools giving loans to Black students who are underrepresented in those institutions isn’t the main cause for racial disparities in student loan debt. It’s overall income disparities (basically discrimination in hiring and wages) that render Black graduates less able to pay off those loans. Also Black students are overrepresented at predatory for profit institutions which are basically designed to siphon federal loan money for limited returns.

It's great that you have tried to address why black students 4 years after they graduate end up 12.5% more in debt. That does not explain why they end up with 25K more debt on average than white students if, as you have said, schools are pilfering the rich to aid the poor. Again, provide the data. And more generally explain why colleges are not responsible for helping contain costs using data.

 

[ConnorEl]

Does More Federal Aid Raise Tuition Costs? Not For Most Students, Research Says

 

[PhDeac]

DeacMan, I’ve already explained both and if you want to know even more you can search this thread and see articles that I’ve posted with more evidence.

 

[DeacMan]

DeacMan, I’ve already explained both and if you want to know even more you can search this thread and see articles that I’ve posted with more evidence.

No, you really have explained very little. Your statement as to why about 50% of African American students 4 years post grad hold even more debt than when they graduate makes great sense. I can totally buy into that explantation.

But you have otherwise not provided any data to back up your positions about the rise in college debt and the vastly disproportionate impact it has on poorer students in light of your assertion that colleges are forcing the rich to pay more to help level the playing field. Nor have you, on a macro basis, provided any explanation for total college debt rising by almost 500% in the last 16 years while the number of college students has advanced just 12%. Nor have you countered data adjusted for inflation that shows total government expenditures nationwide to colleges and universities not grounded in debt have increased 13.2% between 2007 and 2017.

I've said my mind can be changed with data that colleges bear a significant part of the blame for the mess we find ourselves in because they have not controlled costs. You've offered literally no data to counteract this. If it is so handy, just provide the fucking data. Go on and explain why colleges and universities should not be better stewards of funding to help control cost increases.

 

[PhDeac]

First of all, people who can pay more for college do pay more. That’s a simple fact I can’t imagine you disagree with.

Second, I never argued that college debt hasn’t gone up dramatically. Of course it has. It’s going up because more people are taking out longer student loans to attend college longer and gain more credentials. Rising income inequality has hollowed out the middle class leaving fewer and fewer families who can straight up pay rising college costs. You don’t know this?

My point was that simply stopping federal student loans wouldn’t solve the situation.

Again, I’ve been posting this stuff on this thread for years. Just catch up on my posts and we’ll continue the conversation.

 

[plama]

Well yes, a simple stopping of something we've been doing for 30 years isn't going to be practical. But it's also wise to acknowledge that something we did with good intentions is having bad unintended consequences, which appears to be DeacMan's position.

We're probably better off just using tax dollars to provide the education than we are subsidizing loans which inflate prices. It's hard to imagine tech not completely revolutionizing education over the next century.

 

[ConnorEl]

Well yes, a simple stopping of something we've been doing for 30 years isn't going to be practical. But it's also wise to acknowledge that something we did with good intentions is having bad unintended consequences, which appears to be DeacMan's position.

We're probably better off just using tax dollars to provide the education than we are subsidizing loans which inflate prices. It's hard to imagine tech not completely revolutionizing education over the next century.

The biggest factor in the cost of college, he says, will be decisions from state governments about funding higher education.

Research shows that when states cut back funding for higher education, students pay more. And in recent years, Hartle says, "State governments are walking away from supporting colleges and universities."

 

[DeacMan]

Again, provide data PH.

Debt is up over 500% from 2004 to 2020.
Non-debt aid is up 13% to colleges, universities and students between 2007 to 2017 (this number is adjusted for inflation)
The number of students is up only 12% between 2004 to 2020 (this is a figure that includes undergrad and grad students).

The above does not equate to debt rising so exponentially because "more students are going to graduate school" and "no one can afford to pay for college because everyone now needs debt because we've hollowed out the middle class".

Here's another set of facts that lays a significant part of the blame at the feet of universities and colleges. Between 2000 and 2020 the average rise in the cost of goods and services in the United States rose 50%. The average cost of a college education across the country per US News rose by over 144% at private universities, over 165% for out of state tuition at public universities and over 212% for in-state tuition at public universities. There is almost no good or service people consume in large numbers that has risen more rapidly in cost. And you are not addressing this.

Again, colleges and universities are in significant part to blame for this mess due to their own failure to contain cost expansion.

 

[PhDeac]

Of course tuition has gone up. I haven’t said otherwise.

 

[DeacMan]

Of course tuition has gone up. I haven’t said otherwise.

And what should colleges be doing to contain it. Why can't they play a roll in the solution? Why should what they charge rise vastly more than the cost of other goods and services when the overall subsidies they have received adjusted for inflation have risen by 13% over the course of decade?

 

[awaken]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/video/purdue-president-college-costs-affordability-143633262.html

He grins like the Cheshire Cat when asked how he can afford to keep tuition flat since 2012. What he doesn't say is "we've been raising tuition the last 20 years at least 3x the rate of inflation and added a lot unnecessary overhead. Our buildings are paid for, and the unit price per student for a professor is cheap. The actual cost per student for us to break even is a fraction of what is being charged. We can continue to not raise tuition for a generation, make money, and posture grandiosely about it."

 

[DeacMan]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/video/purdue-president-college-costs-affordability-143633262.html

He grins like the Cheshire Cat when asked how he can afford to keep tuition flat since 2012. What he doesn't say is "we've been raising tuition the last 20 years at least 3x the rate of inflation and added a lot unnecessary overhead. Our buildings are paid for, and the unit price per student for a professor is cheap. The actual cost per student for us to break even is a fraction of what is being charged. We can continue to not raise tuition for a generation, make money, and posture grandiosely about it."

"A lot of it has been expense control. Julie, I have to confess that I think there's a lot more we can do." And this is coming from a guy who has made it his mission to not raise tuition for a decade.

 

[deacdiggler]

1. stop building new buildings - don't engage in the facilities arms race
2. stop improving stadiums
3. stop paying coaches huge amounts
4. profit

 

[PhDeac]

And what should colleges be doing to contain it. Why can't they play a roll in the solution? Why should what they charge rise vastly more than the cost of other goods and services when the overall subsidies they have received adjusted for inflation have risen by 13% over the course of decade?

The stuff Digg said and other things I've posted here over the years. You posted on this thread for the first time two days ago. This discussion started almost 10 years ago. I'm not going to write out long explanations that I've written before.

Tuition has risen higher than other goods and services but wages have risen less than other goods and services. Until we address income and wealth inequality and decrease the need to have a college education to get a good paying job, people will take out big loans for a college education.

 

[DeacMan]

Tuition has risen higher than other goods and services but wages have risen less than other goods and services. Until we address income and wealth inequality and decrease the need to have a college education to get a good paying job, people will take out big loans for a college education.

Tuition (and other student based costs) have increased hundred(s) fold. That's really all that needs to be said in response to the above shitty logic about relative wage stagnation.

Translation - "I'm really, really vested in colleges not containing costs."

 

[DeacMan]

1. stop building new buildings - don't engage in the facilities arms race
2. stop improving stadiums
3. stop paying coaches huge amounts
4. profit

Yes, the whole facilities arm race thing comes with huge costs.

Also, quit pilfering students with insane room and board costs for what they receive. My daughter goes to school in a big city. Two weeks before school started the university decided not to open the dorms in the Fall due to Covid. We scrambled and found her a 1 bedroom apartment two blocks from campus in a brand new building. It has a living room, a fully stacked kitchen, a washer and dryer and a nice bathroom. Inside the building are great common areas as well as a nice workout facility. That one bedroom costs less per month than the school was going to charge for a dorm room with a small bathroom. The apartment was about 3-4x as big as the dorm room. And she decided to get a roommate with more than halved the cost relative to what the school was going to charge. Did I mention the school tries to require all freshmen and sophomores who hail from out of state to live on campus? Just another anecdote of schools charging above the norm.

 

[DeaconCav06]

I believe Wake now requires that you live on campus for 3 years.

When I was there it was only 2.

On the flip side my wife went to UF and the only time she stayed in a dorm was orientation.

 

[DeacMan]

I believe Wake now requires that you live on campus for 3 years.

When I was there it was only 2.

On the flip side my wife went to UF and the only time she stayed in a dorm was orientation.

I think it was just one year way back in the 80's and 90's, but I can't recall. Suffice to say requiring student housing for 3 years is just another way to drive those revenues.

Article on point. Not surprised the University of Illinois (state is basically bankrupt despite a high tax burden) requires on campus life. https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...93aed6-63b5-11e5-b38e-06883aacba64_story.html