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Another dismal forecast for our fb team

The combination of Brad Lambert finally hitting the road and a greater level of experience from the returning players should yield immediate dividends this fall.
 
mebanedeac said:
Agree.
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Agree as well. Two observations after watching the 2006 UNC game yesterday (had to watch some football).

Our offense was "extremely conservative" as the announcers noted. We were lead by an amazing defense that had, at any given time, 7 NFL signies. Swank provided excellent special teams.

The Grobe formula has not changed. Recruit from a puddle, play not to beat yourself, win with defense. Only the expectations of the fans have changed.

4-8 would be a good season, 5-7 every good, 6-6 amazing given the holes we all see in this team before the Syracuse game.
 
PhDeac said:
And the above posts are evidence that Grobe will coach here as long as he wants regardless of the record until we hire a new AD and that's a maybe.
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That's crap.

The above posts are evidence that Grobe won an ACC Championship at the smallest BCS school in the country, and has therefore proven something. Because of that, he gets to have the occasional down year.

Nobody is saying that if we throw up Caldwell-like numbers for the next 2 seasons we will blindly stay with Grobe. If we win a combined 3 conference games over the next 2 years I'm sure he would be on the hot seat. The guy went 1-7, 3-5, then won a championship. After 3 bowls and a tough luck year we go 1-7 again and it's firing time? Idiotic.
 
Hwaker said:
Agree as well. Two observations after watching the 2006 UNC game yesterday (had to watch some football).

Our offense was "extremely conservative" as the announcers noted. We were lead by an amazing defense that had, at any given time, 7 NFL signies. Swank provided excellent special teams.

The Grobe formula has not changed. Recruit from a puddle, play not to beat yourself, win with defense. Only the expectations of the fans have changed.

4-8 would be a good season, 5-7 every good, 6-6 amazing given the holes we all see in this team before the Syracuse game.
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The fans expect to see the same thing we expected before the ECU road opener in 2001. We expect to see fundamental sound smart football with good execution from players and coaches giving 110% at all times.

The Grobe formula hasn't changed, but he hasn't brought in the players necessary to make his formula work. That's what's changed compared to 2006-08. I posted this a few weeks ago and this is my basic take on Grobe:

"My argument is that 2006-08 is looking more and more like outliers for reasons that will be very difficult to duplicate and I'm not convinced there's a different way that Grobe can win, at least with his current personnel."

The fact that the Grobe formula hasn't changed to fit the fact that we don't have the personnel to do it isn't a positive. Good back and look at the 2004 recruiting class that was the lynch pin of those three bowls. It's doubtful we bring in that kind of class even if Grobe specifically went out and tried to do it. I don't remember the specifics of that recruiting year, but what we ended up with was a big gamble that paid off big time.
 
PhDeac said:
The fans expect to see the same thing we expected before the ECU road opener in 2001. We expect to see fundamental sound smart football with good execution from players and coaches giving 110% at all times.

The Grobe formula hasn't changed, but he hasn't brought in the players necessary to make his formula work. That's what's changed compared to 2006-08. I posted this a few weeks ago and this is my basic take on Grobe:

"My argument is that 2006-08 is looking more and more like outliers for reasons that will be very difficult to duplicate and I'm not convinced there's a different way that Grobe can win, at least with his current personnel."

The fact that the Grobe formula hasn't changed to fit the fact that we don't have the personnel to do it isn't a positive. Good back and look at the 2004 recruiting class that was the lynch pin of those three bowls. It's doubtful we bring in that kind of class even if Grobe specifically went out and tried to do it. I don't remember the specifics of that recruiting year, but what we ended up with was a big gamble that paid off big time.
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PH, your reply is a bit disjointed. First off, we do agree that the formula hasn't changed. Coaches and players giving 100%.

I think what your saying is that we haven't recruited superior players like the 2004 class, that was a gamble? I think almost all our classes are a reach. Wake often gets the diamond in the rough. Some pan out, others don't but most Wake bowl teams, Grobe and before, were senior laden teams. While 2006 had a lot of young talent, it also had the most 5th year Seniors in the ACC that year. Also had 19 returning starters. Was it a shot of luck to win the ACC that year? You bet. Ask UNC or NCSU if they would like the same.

But my heavens, except for last year, each of Grobe's teams have played hard and been competitive. Wake was 4-7 in 2005 but largely fought hard and kept games close. If we see another two years of teams not competitive then lets talk. But Grobe has not changed, been more successful than any other coach I have watched in my 40 years of following the Deacons and deserves a bit of respect if not loyalty.
 
What I was saying is basically what I said a few weeks ago:

PhDeac said:
But it's tough to replace legends. Much like Odom getting Duncan from the VI or Prosser getting Paul from Wake's backyard, it would be very hard for Grobe to duplicate taking a 19 man class with 14 defensive players and perhaps the most clutch player we've ever had in Sam Swank. If that's what it takes to go to 3 straight bowls again, don't count on it. What we've seen is that Grobe still thinks he can win like he did with the FRESH DEACS (it feels good just to type that) without them and he's not changing his basic philosophy to do so, especially when things get tough (i.e. Odom post-Haywood tip/Peppers BOOM! UNC game).

I don't have a lot of hope that we have that level of NFL-caliber talent on the defense to win or that the coaching will make the adjustments necessary. I do have some hope that the coaching changes in the offseason will lead to positives on the field, but it's a last hope.
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I doubt you'll see Grobe ever again take a class with no RBs and no O-linemen. That was a huge gamble that paid off because it gave the defense the margin of error necessary to be the foundation for Grobe's philosophy. Getting 14 defensive players in that class gave the defense plenty of depth (for example, enough to stomach losing an All-ACC MLB early, a very promising MLB in Berry, to end up with an NFL MLB in Arnoux). It also created more room for players who barely made it to campus as well as NFL players.

I'll put it like this. You'd expect to take 9 O, 9 D, and 1 P/K in a 19 man class. We got 14 D out of it. Phonz, Patterson, Arnoux, Major, Davis, Wilson, and Curry all verballed within two weeks of signing day. If Grobe holds off on some of them to even out the class, who knows what would have happened in 2006-08.
 
In Ph's world, guys who get drafted but don't light it up in the pros are evidence that our basketball players were overrated and it wasn't a coaching problem, but also that our football coaches are overrated and we'll never see such a pinnacle of talent ever again in Wake football.

Wake's talent in basketball far outweighed our talent in football. With a great coach that leads to ACC titles and multiple bowl games. Or it gets squandered for a grand total of one postseason win.

Whatever side you take, you can't argue it both ways.
 
Two points:
[1] Grobe's got a pass as long as he wants one, as far as I am concerned. [2] This will be Lobo's last season as offensive coordinator if the offensive production does not improve meaningfully.
 
1976Deac said:
Two points:
[1] Grobe's got a pass as long as he wants one, as far as I am concerned. [2] This will be Lobo's last season as offensive coordinator if the offensive production does not improve meaningfully.
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Totally agree on 1., and hope so on 2. Not to belabor the point, but the offense has always been conservative with Grobe and Lobo.

Galloway is our hope now... Will he bring a vertical passing game to the Deacs?
 
Nothing wrong with a conservative offense as long as we have the personnel to do it. Being conservative with a poor defense and questionable special teams is a bad strategy. And people use Grobe's philosophy as an excuse for bad offense without taking into account that our offense has been pretty poor at being a ball control offense as well.

DCDeac said:
In Ph's world, guys who get drafted but don't light it up in the pros are evidence that our basketball players were overrated and it wasn't a coaching problem, but also that our football coaches are overrated and we'll never see such a pinnacle of talent ever again in Wake football.

Wake's talent in basketball far outweighed our talent in football. With a great coach that leads to ACC titles and multiple bowl games. Or it gets squandered for a grand total of one postseason win.

Whatever side you take, you can't argue it both ways.
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DC, you'll have to remind me what you're talking about. Over the last 20 years, the only Wake NBA draft pick who didn't perform at or above his draft status is Childress and he's my favorite player of all time. So that statement doesn't make any sense because it doesn't really apply to Wake draft picks. I haven't made any argument about football draft picks not lighting it up in the pros either.

The argument I have made about Wake and the NBA draft is that Wake draft picks are so successful because our marginal draft picks like Big E, JGray, and more recent Ish didn't get the type of exposure in March to boost them to solid 2nd round picks.

Thankfully this board has a search function to help avoid situations like this in the future.
 
mebanedeac said:
My real reason for posting this was the comment about our secondary still being sub-par. You have to take that position until they prove something different on the field, I suppose. However, it seemed to me that we had better athletes at that position than in the past. The inexperience forced us to play soft and to give up virtually everything underneath. I fully expect that we will play much tighter this season and that our athleticism will result in a MUCH improved secondary.
Yet, the ability to get pressure on the QB will continue to be a huge factor in our over-all pass defense.
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Let's hope it was inexperience and not lack of skill/technique. Agree the athleticism at most spots seems to be strong.
 
1976Deac said:
Two points:
[1] Grobe's got a pass as long as he wants one, as far as I am concerned. [2] This will be Lobo's last season as offensive coordinator if the offensive production does not improve meaningfully.
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Really? Even if he keeps producing seasons like last year?
 
We need to be clear about last year.

It wasn't just that the record was bad, Wake has had bad records before including with Grobe as coach.

It was the way Wake was blown out of games last year. I can easily see Wake having a poor record this coming year but be far more competitive as a team. If that occurs, I call it progress and not a repeat of last year.

With the schedule we have this year, I think 5 wins would be a solid year of progress. If we see a bunch of blow outs, that is a different story.
 
Hwaker said:
We need to be clear about last year.

It wasn't just that the record was bad, Wake has had bad records before including with Grobe as coach.

It was the way Wake was blown out of games last year. I can easily see Wake having a poor record this coming year but be far more competitive as a team. If that occurs, I call it progress and not a repeat of last year.

With the schedule we have this year, I think 5 wins would be a solid year of progress. If we see a bunch of blow outs, that is a different story.
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For some reason almost every season in recent memory has included a blow-out game in which it was obvious that we were simply not prepared to play. I do not know how to explain that.

Last year was different in that we were humiliated in several games. However, we were exceptionally young. Unless you have truly exceptional players, youth is a killer in major college football. If on the other hand, we get our heads handed to us repeatedly this season, that will be seriously alarming. We will still be young and the record may be much less than I hope for, however we should not be utterly humiliated as we were against Stanford.
 
Youth is a symptom not a cause. One of the purposes of mass redshirting is to avoid having young teams.
 
PhDeac said:
Youth is a symptom not a cause. One of the purposes of mass redshirting is to avoid having young teams.
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You know the story, not every class works out.

Red shirting is a major component in Coach Grobe's philosophy and it has served him/us well. It was not possible last season and we paid the price. The freshmen forced into action last season had to grow faster than most. It was painful last year, it should make this year and next much less painful. Every player must be a freshman sometime redshirt or not.

Time will tell.
 
I have heard we will be blitzing a LOT more this year. Also, one D-coordinator will be in the booth and one will be on the field. I don't know if that's been mentioned yet but if they communicate, they should not only be able to see what's going on from above, but know how the players are reacting coming off the field.

As to the vertical passing game, what good is it if you can't give the WRs time to run down the field? Only way that can be successful is if the QB has time to throw, which hasn't been a strong point.
 
Wake Forest said:
I have heard we will be blitzing a LOT more this year. Also, one D-coordinator will be in the booth and one will be on the field. I don't know if that's been mentioned yet but if they communicate, they should not only be able to see what's going on from above, but know how the players are reacting coming off the field.

As to the vertical passing game, what good is it if you can't give the WRs time to run down the field? Only way that can be successful is if the QB has time to throw, which hasn't been a strong point.
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We didn't have a defensive coach in the booth previously?
 
I'll believe the blitzing thing when I see it - heard it before. Our lack of faith in our DB's (founded or not) usually keeps us from blitzing and putting them on an island.

I just want to see us not coach uphill for a change. I think a lot of our frustration as fans is that we make the game harder than it has to be. We can all list the backward ass things we've seen us try: slow developing running plays from the spread with an OL that can't hold blocks, FB's as wideouts, no deceit or misdirection, 10 yard cushions by CB's conceding 8 yd hooks, etc.

I think we all yearn for the days when we were a cut blocking misdirection team that could break a big one if a defense pursued (and we ran misdirection) or stayed put (and we ran a sweep).

Good coaches assess their team's strengths and scheme accordingly (think Shula who ran with Czonka, Kiick, Morris in the 70's, threw with Marino in the 80's). I haven't seen us match a scheme to our strengths in a loooong time. Seen us completely overhaul our offense mid-season though.
 
Grobe has done a great job coaching to our strengths before.

The problem last season was that we had no consistent strengths.
 
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