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As the New Basketball Season Begins....

RJKarl said:
I gave Dino credit for being a very good assistant coach. That is an important position. As a head coach he is terrible.

With two great penetrators, the best FT line forward in the nation, two huge slashers at forward, any competent coach would have made us unzonable. A decent HS coach could have done it.

Virtually no team in the nation could play us man-to-man.
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Dino was a better head coach than Prosser! Skip could not game coach a lick
 
vtwhat etc said:
"The person we hire may or may not have a national championship under his belt or a conference championship. I don't know," Wellman said
4.8.2010
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Ron Wellman got rid of 2 guys that had 5 ACC titles under their belts--just because he had to hire his own coaches--that darn ego thing....Dave Odom & George Greer.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
No.
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Legitimacy of either side of the Skip vs. Dino is a more legitimate debate than Bz vs. any D1 coach I've ever tried to evaluate.

That doesn't mean Skip wasn't better than Dino... but Bz is so far behind in every conceivable measure its an insult to any other major coach you could name to try to compare him to.

I have done comparisons between Bz and Lowe. I've posted them on here. I challenge any of you to find a head coach of a D1 program that has been worse than Jeff [Redacted] over the past 5 years.

I was sympathetic towards Wellman until this year. The fact that Bz remains at Wake (making ~$1MM a year) is a frickin' disgrace. Its truly unimaginable.
 
Fusiondad10 said:
Now we know there may have been some character issues with Dino's teams, but I'd take his understanding of how to make flawed players viable, and his value of defense and rebounding anyday.
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Actually we dont know that. It is revisionist history resulting from making some things public that usually are handled more quietly (and if we dont realize that's happened both before and after Dino we are being incredibly naive) and misrepresenting other things. They werent all choir boys, but neither were some of the guys recruited before Dino was hired or after he was fired. The culture change stuff is BS. The more it is repeated, the more people who dont know what's up believe it. If a lie is repeated enough times, many folks begin to accept it as the truth.

BTW, I agree with the last part of your statement above.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
CMM looked really good on Friday, i'm excited about him. There is an alternative universe where he and CMM are playing on the same team.
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I am still waiting for someone to explain this in a way that I can understand.

BabyDeac75 said:
The culture change stuff is BS. The more it is repeated, the more people who dont know what's up believe it. If a lie is repeated enough times, many folks begin to accept it as the truth.
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Babydeac, I trust your basketball stuff almost without any reservations, but i disagree here. I may be the only single person that buys Wellman's culture change thing, but I do -- I have seen it throughout the athletic department, from program to program. It might be BS when it comes to basketball (and everything that has happened in the last two years has supported that perspective), but i buy into the whole thing. Maybe a better way of putting it is not "culture change", but "culture preservation".
 
wakephan09 said:
I am still waiting for someone to explain this in a way that I can understand.
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good catch. I meant to put "Terrell & CMM" I think JTT's game would improve a lot with a good point guard and a structured offense.
 
Some of you are not worthy to like the pre sweat from Coach Prosser's ball sack !
 
wakephan09 said:
I am still waiting for someone to explain this in a way that I can understand.



Babydeac, I trust your basketball stuff almost without any reservations, but i disagree here. I may be the only single person that buys Wellman's culture change thing, but I do -- I have seen it throughout the athletic department, from program to program. It might be BS when it comes to basketball (and everything that has happened in the last two years has supported that perspective), but i buy into the whole thing. Maybe a better way of putting it is not "culture change", but "culture preservation".
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The arrest record would indicate that a culture or character change was very much needed.
 
"Recruiting is certainly not an exact science"

+

"WFU athletic director Ron Wellman said the university did its due diligence and checked out the players in advance. They were cleared academically and admissible."

No culture problem, just bad luck.
 
wakephan09 said:
I am still waiting for someone to explain this in a way that I can understand.



Babydeac, I trust your basketball stuff almost without any reservations, but i disagree here. I may be the only single person that buys Wellman's culture change thing, but I do -- I have seen it throughout the athletic department, from program to program. It might be BS when it comes to basketball (and everything that has happened in the last two years has supported that perspective), but i buy into the whole thing. Maybe a better way of putting it is not "culture change", but "culture preservation".
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I know BabyDeac is a super user and has about as good of inside info as you can get but I know for a fact that at least there was an attempt to improve the manners/behavior of WF players after the Dino firing. Don't know if that's what you want to consider culture change but it's more than enough for me to believe that it's not made up drivel.
 
tau06 said:
I know BabyDeac is a super user and has about as good of inside info as you can get but I know for a fact that at least there was an attempt to improve the manners/behavior of WF players after the Dino firing.
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Oh yeah, no doubt Bzz has tried to instill some sort of warped idea of discipline that was then used as an excuse for the results on the court and a post-hire explanation for an enexplainable hire. No one is arguing whether some sort of attempt at culture change has occurred. The disagreement, as far as I can tell, is over whether the "culture change" had anything to do with the firing/hiring.

Whether it was the reason for the coaching change or not, the "culture change", as instituted, appeared to have nothing to do with what was best for the kids. It appears to have been nothing more than a force out maneuver, hanging kids out to dry, publicizing mistakes, etc, and it worked...plenty of culture problems suddenly surfaced after Bzz became coach and plenty of players fled the program, some even making up diseases in order to do so.
 
RacerDeac said:
It appears to have been nothing more than a force out maneuver, hanging kids out to dry, publicizing mistakes, etc, and it worked...
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From the blog TBR linked:
On Tuesday, the school issued a release saying sophomore guard Kelvin Bay -- who averaged 6.3 points, 1.9 assists and 1.3 rebounds per game as a freshman -- will not return to the team next season. The following day, the Rocky Mountain News reported that Bay and three other freshman (Marc Van Burck, Sean Kowal and James Inge) were not leaving on their own accord. Instead, the paper reported, [Redacted] told the players their scholarships wouldn't be renewed.

Bay, who was still on the Boulder campus, got booted from his dorm room last Friday because the school's "May-mester" ended on May 31 and he was forced to stay with a couple friends on the women's team. Inge, who is in good academic standing and played in 15 games last season -- is going through the appeals process and told the paper, "My scholarship was taken unjustly, then it comes out that I chose to leave, which is totally untrue."
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RacerDeac said:
Oh yeah, no doubt Bzz has tried to instill some sort of warped idea of discipline that was then used as an excuse for the results on the court and a post-hire explanation for an enexplainable hire. No one is arguing whether some sort of attempt at culture change has occurred. The disagreement, as far as I can tell, is over whether the "culture change" had anything to do with the firing/hiring.

Whether it was the reason for the coaching change or not, the "culture change", as instituted, appeared to have nothing to do with what was best for the kids. It appears to have been nothing more than a force out maneuver, hanging kids out to dry, publicizing mistakes, etc, and it worked...plenty of culture problems suddenly surfaced after Bzz became coach and plenty of players fled the program, some even making up diseases in order to do so.
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The complete article per TBR...

After years of mediocrity, Colorado hoops fans are ecstatic about the arrival of former Air Force and Denver Nuggets coach Jeff [Redacted]. Unfortunately, some of [Redacted]'s early moves have rubbed people the wrong way. On Tuesday, the school issued a release saying sophomore guard Kelvin Bay -- who averaged 6.3 points, 1.9 assists and 1.3 rebounds per game as a freshman -- will not return to the team next season. The following day, the Rocky Mountain News reported that Bay and three other freshman (Marc Van Burck, Sean Kowal and James Inge) were not leaving on their own accord. Instead, the paper reported, [Redacted] told the players their scholarships wouldn't be renewed.

Bay, who was still on the Boulder campus, got booted from his dorm room last Friday because the school's "May-mester" ended on May 31 and he was forced to stay with a couple friends on the women's team. Inge, who is in good academic standing and played in 15 games last season -- is going through the appeals process and told the paper, "My scholarship was taken unjustly, then it comes out that I chose to leave, which is totally untrue."

We feel for Inge. He made a commitment to attend Colorado for four years and the school made a commitment back to him. He held up his end of the deal and shouldn't be punished by a new coach. While we know [Redacted] wants to put the best possible team on the floor, he shouldn't do it at the expense of a young man's future, especially one who did everything asked of him. Coaches can come and go at will and the players must stay put or risk having to sit out a year if they transfer. Now, we're learning that players are being viewed as disposable commodities. That just isn't right.


No surprise really. When it comes to integrity, this new "culture" fails miserably... I am no longer surprised by Wellman and Buzz. I am a little surprised that President Hatch accepts these two and their shenanigans as part of "his" culture. But the fish rots from the head down. Maybe the problem really is in the President's office.
 
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RacerDeac said:
Oh yeah, no doubt Bzz has tried to instill some sort of warped idea of discipline that was then used as an excuse for the results on the court and a post-hire explanation for an enexplainable hire....
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TBR said:
Let's not pretend that [Redacted] had some great reputation as a culture guy. Besides all the articles about how he left Air Force, there's this issue:
http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/agray/posts/2727-should-college-coaches-be-allowed-to-cut-players

And don't forget Tom Abatemarco. The guy [Redacted] hired even though he was fired twice for verbally abusing players.
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There's a new daddy in town. A discipline daddy.

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