BBall Recruiting Thread 2k19 - Charles Coleman de-commits to Wake. :(

[Wrangor]

Why isn’t Manning on shaky ground?

If he isn't on shaky ground I would ask Wellman. He is the only one who controls that. I think he is on shaky ground personally, but in the end it is still Wellman's decision. In my mind the rational move is that this year is Manning's prove it year. Year 3 was exceeding expectations considering where the program was when he got it. Year 4 was a huge underperformance. Year 5 is keep your job or lose your job year for most AD's. But I really don't know where Wellman is at.

 

[Wrangor]

We weren't better than state last year. In any conceivable metric.

You alternate between bitching about how bad the fans are around here and then making statements like the above- the same type of statements that we would (and did) mock when state fans made them during the 90s-2000s (you know, back when we had a legitimate basketball program).

If you want to discuss why you think Wake will be better than State next year, have at it- I don't tend to agree, but that is what message boards (and pre-season sports discussion in general) is for. But the quote above belies you knowledge of the game.

I am good with the statement, and with my knowledge of the game. I am an optimistic fan, and will continue to be so, even in the depths of [Redacted] I didnt dive as deep as some of your are diving. I am not sure why some of the posters stick around to be honest. Our record was garbage last year, but we weren't all that far away from 18-20 wins in practical game moves. Manning was terrible in the last 5 minutes, and I think that was a combination effect of naive head coaching and relationship issues in the locker room. Both of those things are fixable. We lost 3 underclassmen in this offseason, and while it hurts to lose Moore (and Mitchell to a lesser extent), perhaps our team unity will be much improved.

We definitely need Crawford to return, and for his sake he needs to return. We had an 18-20 win season last year waiting for us, and we choked. It sucks, but it does happen when you are trying to rebuild. I believe this coming year will be a different story. I guess we will know more in November.

 

[PhDeac]

To have won 20 games last year, we would have needed to win 9 of the 13 games in which we lost by single-digits. To get to 11 conference wins, we would have needed to win 7 of 10 games in which we lost by single-digits.

 

[JuiceCrewAllStar]

I have no idea how this is an interesting discussion for you guys. It is so fucking boring after going over the main points the first few times.

 

[Deaconblue]

Wake had 8 losses that were by two possessions (6 pts or fewer) and 4 wins by two possessions or fewer. There were no one possession (3 pts or fewer) wins and only two one possession losses.

Wake was definitely "unclutch" last season.

 

[DeacsATS]

To have won 20 games last year, we would have needed to win 9 of the 13 games in which we lost by single-digits. To get to 11 conference wins, we would have needed to win 7 of 10 games in which we lost by single-digits.

Ph is correct. I posted a deeper dive on this a few months ago.

We absolutely “should” have had a better record last year, but not 20 wins.

I think I came up with something like 15-17 wins and 6-8 ACC wins. A down year, but not a disaster. Even with that outcome, I think sentiment around here would be mildly (but noticeably) better.

It just left a really bad taste in my mouth the way we lost to ND, @GT, & Syracuse at the end of the year. Pretty meaningless games, but made it pretty difficult to defend Manning.

I’m also still amazed at how shitty we were at the start of the season. No excuse for a few of those losses (and close games).

 

[DeacsATS]

I have no idea how this is an interesting discussion for you guys. It is so fucking boring after going over the main points the first few times.

It’s mid-May. Either we talk about this or we talk about nothing.

I don’t know about you, but rehashing this stuff still beats doing actual work.

 

[birdman]

I’d like to correct the record that Dinos’ early departure was a surprise to the staff. In a radio interview during Dinos’ freshman year Danny said something like “I hope we get two years with Dinos”. He knew from the beginning that Dinos was a flight risk and that there was money on the table in Greece and Danny wasn’t able to recruit or develop an insurance policy against that eventuality. Donovan Mitchell was recruited in 2016 as his successor and Mitchell either wasn’t good enough or strong enough to fill that role when Dinos left, so manning scrambled and brought in TT. The 2016 recruiting class was a disaster.

 

[PTownDeac]

Or he's a stubborn bastard with zero self-awareness

Or he's feeling really good about the 6 year extension he earned for no reason from the clueless athletic director.

 

[MichDeac25]

I’d like to correct the record that Dinos’ early departure was a surprise to the staff. In a radio interview during Dinos’ freshman year Danny said something like “I hope we get two years with Dinos”. He knew from the beginning that Dinos was a flight risk and that there was money on the table in Greece and Danny wasn’t able to recruit or develop an insurance policy against that eventuality. Donovan Mitchell was recruited in 2016 as his successor and Mitchell either wasn’t good enough or strong enough to fill that role when Dinos left, so manning scrambled and brought in TT. The 2016 recruiting class was a disaster.

While the first part may be true and everyone remembers that, Dinos' departure was still in July or whatever and was a really weird time for someone to leave. It was past the time to recruit adequate grad transfers. So yeah, it was still a surprise.

 

[Fusiondad10]

When I first began hiring and training new people in my business career, a smart man gave me some very good advice for deciding how these new folks were progressing and how to decide whether to keep them or fire them. He said you must give them all the training they need; you must provide them all the tools they need; you must communicate the goals and responsibilities clearly and get their acceptance and understanding of those; you must give them follow-up and the opportunity to communicate freely; and finally you must give them opportunity to do the job, . But you can't provide the "willingness" to learn or the "ability" to learn. If you give them all the necessary things and they still don't do the job, then they're either not willing, or not capable. I think we could apply these criteria to both our coaches and players.

 

[Deaconblue]

I’d like to correct the record that Dinos’ early departure was a surprise to the staff. In a radio interview during Dinos’ freshman year Danny said something like “I hope we get two years with Dinos”. He knew from the beginning that Dinos was a flight risk and that there was money on the table in Greece and Danny wasn’t able to recruit or develop an insurance policy against that eventuality. Donovan Mitchell was recruited in 2016 as his successor and Mitchell either wasn’t good enough or strong enough to fill that role when Dinos left, so manning scrambled and brought in TT. The 2016 recruiting class was a disaster.

The surprise with Dinos was the timing of his departure well into the summer between his junior and senior years. If he had announced in April or early May that he was not going to be at Wake for his senior season it would have been much less of an issue. No grad transfer PF was going to come to Wake and play (mostly sit) behind a guy who would be a four year starter in Dinos. By the time he left, pickings in the grad transfer market were pretty poor.

2016 was the class where Manning put most of his eggs in the Harry Giles basket. It didn't work out, but Manning had to put a lot of effort into bringing a guy who looked like a generational talent, growing up in Wake's backyard, to Wake. If he hadn't put a lot of effort into that, there would be a lot of criticism for that. The 2016 entering freshmen besides BChill were projects to varying degrees. Unfortunately for Wake, none of the three panned out.

The way the current college landscape is, recruiting classes need to provide an average of two starters/major contributors. This includes transfers. By this I mean guys who start and/or contribute major minutes (like Keyshawn Woods -few starts, but 25 min per game) by the time they leave school, either by graduation or turn pro.

 

[birdman]

While the first part may be true and everyone remembers that, Dinos' departure was still in July or whatever and was a really weird time for someone to leave. It was past the time to recruit adequate grad transfers. So yeah, it was still a surprise.

You are being very generous to the staff here. They new about a potential problem 2 years in advance and were still somehow caught off guard by it. Sure the July decision affected the grad transfer market but we shouldn’t have been in the grad transfer market for Dinos’ replacement since they new about the high potential for this problem two years prior.

 

[birdman]

The surprise with Dinos was the timing of his departure well into the summer between his junior and senior years. If he had announced in April or early May that he was not going to be at Wake for his senior season it would have been much less of an issue. No grad transfer PF was going to come to Wake and play (mostly sit) behind a guy who would be a four year starter in Dinos. By the time he left, pickings in the grad transfer market were pretty poor.

2016 was the class where Manning put most of his eggs in the Harry Giles basket. It didn't work out, but Manning had to put a lot of effort into bringing a guy who looked like a generational talent, growing up in Wake's backyard, to Wake. If he hadn't put a lot of effort into that, there would be a lot of criticism for that. The 2016 entering freshmen besides BChill were projects to varying degrees. Unfortunately for Wake, none of the three panned out.

The way the current college landscape is, recruiting classes need to provide an average of two starters/major contributors. This includes transfers. By this I mean guys who start and/or contribute major minutes (like Keyshawn Woods -few starts, but 25 min per game) by the time they leave school, either by graduation or turn pro.

Thank you for listing all of the excuses in one post. It is a helpful reference.

 

[whodatdeac]

In my mind the rational move is that this year is Manning's prove it year. Year 3 was exceeding expectations considering where the program was when he got it. Year 4 was a huge underperformance. Year 5 is keep your job or lose your job year for most AD's. But I really don't know where Wellman is at.

Completely agree with this, and I think the roster as currently composed does not look to be a “save your ass” kind of team.

 

[Deaconblue]

If things had played out another way, Collins would have moved to PF and Doral into the post for this past season.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

In all fairness, Dinos told the staff he was coming back and a week later he signed a contract.

That's a fact, not an excuse.

 

[PhDeac]

Also the staff should have know Dino was negotiating the contract. The timing was simply the time it took to come up with a deal.

To be fair, we don’t know for sure they didn’t know. Our interest in TT was mentioned before Dino left if I remember correctly.

 

[knowell]

You are being very generous to the staff here. They new about a potential problem 2 years in advance and were still somehow caught off guard by it. Sure the July decision affected the grad transfer market but we shouldn’t have been in the grad transfer market for Dinos’ replacement since they new about the high potential for this problem two years prior.

This

 

[Ayo]

Yeah, we've done so much better recruiting grad transfers this cycle with more time!