BBall Recruiting Thread 2k19 - Charles Coleman de-commits to Wake. :(

[PhDeac]

That's what you pick out to discuss / argue? That was a "great" team relative to anyone's expectations (professional prognosticators or not), relative to anything Danny has ever coached as a head coach, and perhaps even relative to the rest of the conference save for a few teams, but it didn't realize it's potential despite John Collins' herculean efforts because of a poor coaching and lack of commitment on the defensive end of the floor. Not exactly sure what your point is. Drink too much at the race track today? Hope you hit the triple, superfecta of pick six awesomeness!!

The 2017 team exceeded expectations because the 2016 team lowered expectations.

 

[deaconson]

Danny does not deserve an A for any year he coached at wake so far. Certainly expectations were exceeded in 2017 but that was largely about the leap Collins made. Manning has coached the same since he arrived. I have seen no growth in him. That's on his stubborness.

 

[Ayo]

Lol, an A for a First 4 appearance in which the opposing team shot 66%. Man, expectations have been lowered around here. So sad.

 

[sportsnut]

C is the top grade for any year I would give him so far and if he can't learn to play the right people and coach up the defense, it will never go higher

 

[RacerDeac]

Lol, an A for a First 4 appearance in which the opposing team shot 66%. Man, expectations have been lowered around here. So sad.

cOaCH K aNd WooDEn coULd'Nt haVe COachEd AnY BeTtEr!!

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

Eh... I’d give him above a C, probably a B- just because of general preseason expectations and having a really great offense.

 

[Why the Deac Not]

The 2017 team exceeded expectations because the 2016 team lowered expectations.

Any time you have a top 10 scoring offense, you should be able to win 23-25 games even with mediocre defense (Top 125). We were not even in the ball park.

That's all on Danny Manning. If you're athletic enough to score 85 pts a game, you should be athletic enough to hold the other team to 70-72 ppg.

 

[RJKarl]

My bad, Danny gets no credit for the astronomical improvement of Collins (in spite of Collins give him props) or creating a Top 10 offense with no Top 70 players starting. Anyone can do that.

 

[Why the Deac Not]

Eh... I’d give him above a C, probably a B- just because of general preseason expectations and having a really great offense.

Not sure why we're giving out grades, but B- seems fair as he at gave them a few sets to run out of the par and helped unleash Collins by letting him play a style best suited to his talents. But it didn't need to come at the expense of defense entirely. We were worse than Bob Staak era teams.

 

[Why the Deac Not]

The 2017 team exceeded expectations because the 2016 team lowered expectations.

That seems unfair or a needless comparison because despite igniting some hope with unexpectedly good results in the Maui Tourney and vs a relatively soft pre-ACC asked, that team was all frosh and sophs and we had no business expecting anything but improvement. Of course we didn't even get much of that thanks to the long, hard slog that is the ACC winter grind. No one could have possibly known for sure how good we could be in 2016-17 until we saw some games and how the pieces would fit together with Key and Austin joining the fray. You know that team was good enough to reach the Sweet 16 if they played even a modicum of defense. So I'm not really sure what your point is. I'm not exactly propping Danny up as a coach worth keeping.

 

[RJKarl]

Not sure why we're giving out grades, but B- seems fair as he at gave them a few sets to run out of the par and helped unleash Collins by letting him play a style best suited to his talents. But it didn't need to come at the expense of defense entirely. We were worse than Bob Staak era teams.

If we played #125 D, our offense would have suffered. If we were #50 on O and #125 on D, we don't even have a shot at the NIT.

 

[Ayo]

125th defense in the country (125!!!) was too much to ask and would have made our offense suffer?

lolololol, your mind is an amazing thing.

 

[deaconson]

My bad, Danny gets no credit for the astronomical improvement of Collins (in spite of Collins give him props) or creating a Top 10 offense with no Top 70 players starting. Anyone can do that.

Of course he gets credit for helping develop Collins. He also was a shitty game coach. an A grade is laughable and the one decent year in the last 8 has colored your pov about this.

 

[RJKarl]

125th defense in the country (125!!!) was too much to ask and would have made our offense suffer?

lolololol, your mind is an amazing thing.

As usual your lack of knowledge is the amazing and laughable thing here.

You don't have a fucking clue. If we asked, JC and Bryant to cover up for Key and Wilbkein, BC and JC would be on the bench in foul trouble every game. Our offense would have been destroyed.

You and few others here have the boundless delusion that coaches can snap their fingers and make horrific defenders like Key and Wilbekin into mediocre ones. They were among the worst defensive guards (of people who played) Wake has had in at least thirty years.

Austin topped out at mediocre on D. He got in the way a few times and got his hands on a few balls. Wasting his energy on D when he was a ++ shooter is ridiculous.

Dinos' D improved but he still couldn't cover anyone on the perimeter.

Some of you are crazy enough to think anyone can play D, but some can't. If you get two guys on the court who can't play D and you try to make them, the two others who can will pick up many extra help fouls. We couldn't afford that to happen.

I realize even this basic explanation won't have any impact on the knee jerk crowd, but this was our reality.

 

[Ayo]

Army
Rider
San Jose State
North Dakota State
Southeastern Louisiana
Gardner Webb
Sam Houston State
Mount St. Mary's
Texas A&M Corpus Christi
New Hampshire
Penn
Liberty
Evansville
Fairfield
Furman
Elon
Lehigh
Holy Cross

Yeah, lots of great athletes on those teams. All finished with a better defense than us that year. I could keep listing, but I got tired. The "if we asked JC and Crawford to try harder on defense, they would've been in foul trouble all the time and killed our offense!" is such a garbage, cop-out blanket statement with zero substance. Congrats.

 

[RJKarl]

Thanks for proving my point about numbers without context being meaningless. Bring those teams to the ACC or Big 12 and see what their numbers would be.

The "garbage" is not understanding how that list means less than nothing without them playing the same schedule as we do or if we played their schedule. Hell, if we played Mt. St. Mary's or Lehigh's or Fairfield's schedule, I'd make a bet that Doral would have averaged at least 5-7 blocks/game. Bryant or Brandon could have been Top 5 nationally in steals.

The NBA's own "advanced stats" for playoff D rank James Harden over 1st Team All-NBA Defender Jrue Holdiay, all time great defenders like CP3 and Anthony Davis. There is no justification for any methodology that can come up with such a premise.

If you think your list means anything at all, then you should really stop talking about basketball as you couldn't be more clueless.

 

[FckVwls]

Thanks for proving my point about numbers without context being meaningless. Bring those teams to the ACC or Big 12 and see what their numbers would be.

The "garbage" is not understanding how that list means less than nothing without them playing the same schedule as we do or if we played their schedule. Hell, if we played Mt. St. Mary's or Lehigh's or Fairfield's schedule, I'd make a bet that Doral would have averaged at least 5-7 blocks/game. Bryant or Brandon could have been Top 5 nationally in steals.

The NBA's own "advanced stats" for playoff D rank James Harden over 1st Team All-NBA Defender Jrue Holdiay, all time great defenders like CP3 and Anthony Davis. There is no justification for any methodology that can come up with such a premise.

If you think your list means anything at all, then you should really stop talking about basketball as you couldn't be more clueless.

Defensive metrics for rating individual defensive performance can be very misleading - you are correct. However, defensive metrics for the full team rating are very accurate. And they are schedule adjusted. Completely different thing than individuals.

One can debate the reason WFs defenses have been horrible under Manning. I don't really know myself as I didn't watch too much of WF this season. It is really bad though.

 

[Buttermaker]

Is it me or has RNOChill (duh) stolen Wrangor's account?? Realistic? This is your definition of realistic??

Dude, we suck. And even if Hoard and Mucius are great, we will still struggle to move past run of the mill, 9-win, ACC conference mediocrity. Big whoop! We had a great team in 2017 and were barely over .500 in conference. That team should have won 13 games in conference. But they didn't. Cuz you know why? Danny Manning has no freakin' clue what to do on the defensive end of the floor!! You know this. You say you're a coach. So you should know that recruiting a few "great" players (code for has offensive game on the AAU circuit) does not equate with being able to play effective defense. IOW, there are no guarantees, but you damn well better find a coach who can motivate, coach players up, teach them fundamentals and defensive awareness etc. Hopefully your players will also have good to great innate basketball IQ and understand how to play team ball. We're never gonna be able to reload 5-star studs every season so we have to do it the "hard" way at Wake. You know this.

So stop blowing smoke up our asses ad nauseam on this thread and then blame the more realistic, fed up, frustrated lot, who want Wake success as bad as you do for all of the rampant negativity on this thread and board. What pray tell has happened to the BB program in over a year and change that you would consider "positive." And then feel free to add another 8 of the last 9 years onto that? Jaysus man. This is so condescending and whiny. We suck. And probably will for the foreseeable future until we get a new coach, new AD or both.

This program needs a serious paradigm shift, not just a few more "great" players. Perhaps Wellman knows how dirty and slimy the NCAA BB landscape really is and is simply trying to protect us (not really a good strategy any way unless you have the right coach) from things running loose and free and ultimately nose-diving us into probation. But for the love of God, how do we have any happy alumni from the last 10 years after incurring tens of thousands for the privilege of getting needled and derided by their ACC work associates (or at the least lightly cajoled) every time Wake BB falls flat on their face year after year after year? I'm so happy I live in ATL where people still aren't certain where Wake Forest is even located...think they might still think we're over near Raleigh.

However, until there's some actual tangible positive news that might give even the most lukewarm fan a shred of hope, please stop lecturing the die hards like you really know better. You have no idea. Nobody does, but history paints a bleak picture. And Smoking' Danny's body of work doesn't exactly have the positivity neurons firing into euphoria. Cuz it's been mostly 5 years of "smokin' D" as in straight diarrhea.

Entertaining read.

 

[knowell]

Any time you have a top 10 scoring offense, you should be able to win 23-25 games even with mediocre defense (Top 125). We were not even in the ball park.

That's all on Danny Manning. If you're athletic enough to score 85 pts a game, you should be athletic enough to hold the other team to 70-72 ppg.

This is the truth. Manning has been a miserable coach on defense. I think most of it is scheme, but I do not understand how a great big man coach failed so completely to teach such an athlete as Collins to play passable defense. What a waste of a potentially game changing season.

I felt disgusted leaving Winston after the Clemson game. Have not really wanted to go back since. The way that game was lost was repugnant.

 

[DeacDaddy]

This is the truth. Manning has been a miserable coach on defense. I think most of it is scheme, but I do not understand how a great big man coach failed so completely to teach such an athlete as Collins to play passable defense. What a waste of a potentially game changing season.

I felt disgusted leaving Winston after the Clemson game. Have not really wanted to go back since. The way that game was lost was repugnant.

That was the game I finally had enough, and I haven't looked back.