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BBall Recruiting Thread 2k19 - Charles Coleman de-commits to Wake. :(

Ody signing is not encouraging simply because of the lack of information out there. It is certainly a 'diamond in the rough' kind of commit. Doesn't mean it won't work out, but there are reasons he is not ranked in the top 200.

Encouraging that we are still in the hunt for Cole Anthony. Obviously signing that kind of player would change the outlook for this year's class.
 
Manning just continues to dig the whole deeper for any new guy as he ties up schollies with ball boys. This is absurd and shows this recruiting class is going to the toilet quickly. Maybe the postgrad transfer is our new pipeline to greatness????
 
knowell said:
I am pretty sure he was referring to a coaches ability to manage a game through reasonable lineups, substitution patters, use of time outs, strategic decisions, game adjustments, and areas of focus.

I am also pretty sure that I do not need to explain this to you but I will do it just this time.

Manning is pretty atrocious at all of the above. Now that he is recruiting 2-star athletes, there is no water left in the glass.
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I thought that was just “in game” coaching. Does “game/team” coaching include player skill development? Strength and conditioning? Team chemistry? Off court behavior? Player retention? Etc.

I’m not against parsing a college basketball coach’s abilities. I just think it should be done with precision and evaluated objectively. I haven’t seen anyone on here do the first, and I’m skeptical that we have the tools to do the second.

I’ll stick to evaluating a college basketball coach’s performance on the whole and let y’all quibble about meaningless coaching subcategories.
 
RChildress107 said:
I thought that was just “in game” coaching. Does “game/team” coaching include player skill development? Strength and conditioning? Team chemistry? Off court behavior? Player retention? Etc.

I’m not against parsing a college basketball coach’s abilities. I just think it should be done with precision and evaluated objectively. I haven’t seen anyone on here do the first, and I’m skeptical that we have the tools to do the second.

I’ll stick to evaluating a college basketball coach’s performance on the whole and let y’all quibble about meaningless coaching subcategories.
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You do this constantly.
 
ChrisL68 said:
You got four coaches two of them have among the worst records in ACC play in conference history in the other two have over 500 records in ACC play in conference history.
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birdman said:
What does KP say? If you don't use RC107 preferred metrics for success what's the point in even engaging in an argument.
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You’re falling down on the job birdman. I thought you were going to help root out these Manning/[Redacted] comparisons. I’m open to metrics other than Kenpom. It’s not perfect and there might be better metrics out there for objectively evaluating coaches. Kenpom is simply well known, easy to understand, easily accessible, and goes back over 15 years.

I’m also open to arguments that a 1 point win over NC A&T is the same as a 30 point win over UNC, or that a 1 point loss to Duke is the same as a 30 point loss to Duquesne. I’ve found that most people are averse to making that argument and the few that start quickly stop when presented with the logical implications of that argument.
 
tigerswood said:
You do this constantly.
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Link? I’ve been arguing for years that a coach should be evaluated on his team’s results using an objective metric that incorporates strength of schedule and margin of victory. I don’t particularly care how a coach achieves those results since I don’t think any of us are good at precisely parsing out the individual aspects of coaching.

I typically only engage in the quibbling to point this fact out (see the numerous John Collins discussions).
 
RChildress107 said:
You’re falling down on the job birdman. I thought you were going to help root out these Manning/[Redacted] comparisons. I’m open to metrics other than Kenpom. It’s not perfect and there might be better metrics out there for objectively evaluating coaches. Kenpom is simply well known, easy to understand, easily accessible, and goes back over 15 years.

I’m also open to arguments that a 1 point win over NC A&T is the same as a 30 point win over UNC, or that a 1 point loss to Duke is the same as a 30 point loss to Duquesne. I’ve found that most people are averse to making that argument and the few that start quickly stop when presented with the logical implications of that argument.
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Alright, I’ll back you up here to an extent. The overall coaching assessment discussion belongs in a different thread. But as far as recruiting goes, Manning is clearly better than Bz. Bz didn’t get anywhere close to ever recruiting a player like Chundeac or Hoard. His highest ranked recruit was CMM right? Ranked somewhere in the mid 70s I think. Manning has put together 1 and now probably 2 [Redacted] level classes though. Saying that he is as good a recruiter as Prosser or Gaudio is also preposterous... those guys landed Paul, Teague, Johnson, Aminu, Ish, and more. No offense to him, but Masoud was usually a player that would round out a prosser/gaudio class, not headline it. It’s ok to admit that Manning sucks, not as much as [Redacted], but way more than Prosser/Gaudio. Any other argument is really just quibbling over nuance and the second derivative of the advanced metrics on a low ranked high school recruit.
 
I might be old-fashioned but I usually evaluate coaches on their win-loss record after they've had time to make a team their own. While everything else can be debated, wins are pretty simple - either they win or they don't. Danny Manning is 54-72 (.429) overall and 20-52 (.278) in ACC play. If he went undefeated in ACC play this season, he'd still only have a .422 ACC win percentage (5 seasons). He would need to go 25-7 or better this season to end his fifth season with an above .500 record overall.

Manning is 54-72 (.429), 20-52 (.278)
[Redacted] was 51-76 (.402), 17-51 (.250)
Dino was 61-31 (.663), 27-21 (.563)
Skip was 128-68 (.649), 52-44 (.542)

So yes, going by their respective records, Manning is much closer to [Redacted] than the other two. If you want to remove his first two seasons due to the stench of Bzz, he is still only at 30-34 (.469), 13-23 (.361) and also still closer to [Redacted] than the other two.

For those those that say that he's as bad as [Redacted], you are hurting your argument. He's clearly a step forward but it's just not been nearly as big as most have wanted or the program needs.
 
RChildress107 said:
Link? I’ve been arguing for years that a coach should be evaluated on his team’s results using an objective metric that incorporates strength of schedule and margin of victory. I don’t particularly care how a coach achieves those results since I don’t think any of us are good at precisely parsing out the individual aspects of coaching.

I typically only engage in the quibbling to point this fact out (see the numerous John Collins discussions).
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Maybe we kind find a metric that includes all of the above but that does not consider a 1 point loss and a 1 point win as basically the same thing.
 
RChildress107 said:
You’re falling down on the job birdman. I thought you were going to help root out these Manning/[Redacted] comparisons. I’m open to metrics other than Kenpom. It’s not perfect and there might be better metrics out there for objectively evaluating coaches. Kenpom is simply well known, easy to understand, easily accessible, and goes back over 15 years.

I’m also open to arguments that a 1 point win over NC A&T is the same as a 30 point win over UNC, or that a 1 point loss to Duke is the same as a 30 point loss to Duquesne. I’ve found that most people are averse to making that argument and the few that start quickly stop when presented with the logical implications of that argument.
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why do we need to talk about NC A&T and Duquesne?

Kenpom's a great tool for comparing Bucknell to Creighton and Western Kentucky

if we're comparing Wake Forest basketball for various multi-year periods, we have ACC play over those multi-year periods

is the ACC from 2004-2010 identical to the ACC from 2011-2017? of course not

is it close enough? of course it is
 
KingDeac said:
I might be old-fashioned but I usually evaluate coaches on their win-loss record after they've had time to make a team their own. While everything else can be debated, wins are pretty simple - either they win or they don't. Danny Manning is 54-72 (.429) overall and 20-52 (.278) in ACC play. If he went undefeated in ACC play this season, he'd still only have a .422 ACC win percentage (5 seasons). He would need to go 25-7 or better this season to end his fifth season with an above .500 record overall.

Manning is 54-72 (.429), 20-52 (.278)
[Redacted] was 51-76 (.402), 17-51 (.250)
Dino was 61-31 (.663), 27-21 (.563)
Skip was 128-68 (.649), 52-44 (.542)

So yes, going by their respective records, Manning is much closer to [Redacted] than the other two. If you want to remove his first two seasons due to the stench of Bzz, he is still only at 30-34 (.469), 13-23 (.361) and also still closer to [Redacted] than the other two.

For those those that say that he's as bad as [Redacted], you are hurting your argument. He's clearly a step forward but it's just not been nearly as big as most have wanted or the program needs.
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That’s perfectly fine. I actually envy this view. I’m all for a world where UNC-G was better than UNC last year.
 
thatguy2016 said:
why do we need to talk about NC A&T and Duquesne?

Kenpom's a great tool for comparing Bucknell to Creighton and Western Kentucky

if we're comparing Wake Forest basketball for various multi-year periods, we have ACC play over those multi-year periods

is the ACC from 2004-2010 identical to the ACC from 2011-2017? of course not

is it close enough? of course it is
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How do we know this without referring to non-conference play?

Let’s say we just evaluate Wake in the closed loop of ACC play. Without round robin play you still need to incorporate strength of schedule and given the smaller sample size, margin of victory becomes even more imperative. If someone wants to find or develop a Kenpom-esque system that only incorporates ACC play I’d be interested to see the results.

Of course such a system would be useless in comparing Wake to Washington or Virginia to Villanova.
 
LesJohns3D said:
It's his first and only season at Woodstock, right? Do you know he's coming off the bench? Have they already played?

Looked this up a little while typing this response. Are there REALLY 28 guys on this team's roster? What??

https://www.woodstockacademy.org/site/Default.aspx?PageID=444
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Going by what I saw of the Woodstock Academy practice footage so far, it looked like Tre Mitchell was practicing with the 1's and Ody with the 2's. They both play the 4/5 but I guess its possible they could go big and start them both. Still it was Tre Mitchell who was the obvious focus of the coaches, our guy was playing the background. Good thing is Woodstock Academy streams their games, so we should get plenty of film on Ody to confirm my suspicions that he is a tremendous reach for a desperate staff. If we miraculously pull out Cole Anthony that would change everyone's view of the situation, but I'm not holding my breath.

Usually can pull a live stream off their website during games:
https://www.woodstockacademy.org/athletics/live
 
netflixnchildres said:
Going by what I saw of the Woodstock Academy practice footage so far, it looked like Tre Mitchell was practicing with the 1's and Ody with the 2's. They both play the 4/5 but I guess its possible they could go big and start them both. Still it was Tre Mitchell who was the obvious focus of the coaches, our guy was playing the background. Good thing is Woodstock Academy streams their games, so we should get plenty of film on Ody to confirm my suspicions that he is a tremendous reach for a desperate staff. If we miraculously pull out Cole Anthony that would change everyone's view of the situation, but I'm not holding my breath.

Usually can pull a live stream off their website during games:
https://www.woodstockacademy.org/athletics/live
Click to expand...

If anyone is interested there is a radio broadcast of Woodstock Academy's version of midnight madness from this year that is 1 hour and 2 mins long. I did not care enough about Ody to listen to it and see if he recorded any stats or special moments. His hudl from last year disappointed me enough.
 
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