Bullshit Fox News Says

[ImTheCaptain]

There are also phone and cable TV co-ops in rural areas.

right. but wgaf about that segment of the economy; those are in place to provide utility services in areas that are commercially un-viable but still take advantage of the innovations the private, competitive sector created

 

[ImTheCaptain]

most small law firms, A/E firms, private equity shops?

i mean, what a three-five person law or accounting firm? ok, that's a partnership. they still employ secretaries and paralegals and other underlings that are rarely (if ever) considered partners or own 'voting' shares of ownership

 

[dartsndeacs]

Got it. you guys had been arguing uselessly for long enough and I wasn't going to scroll back and read the original question.

Are you just asking how many ESOP's are out there? Most ESOP's I've seen are just vehicles where old people can cash out when they retire on unsuspecting new partners who'll pay too much to buy in.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

Got it. you guys had been arguing uselessly for long enough and I wasn't going to scroll back and read the original question.

Are you just asking how many ESOP's are out there? Most ESOP's I've seen are just vehicles where old people can cash out when they retire on unsuspecting new partners who'll pay too much to buy in.

i just asked him for some examples of collectively-owned small businesses and his response was "you ever hear of Co-Ops?" and i said, yeah, generally that's a group of individual businesses teaming up for a variety of reasons - not what i asked for.

RJ did have a good example of a situation where a body of [usually] elected participants does "run" a utility for an under-served population. But I think that's sort of irrelevant b/c they're providing a utility service and not competing against other private businesses

and if you decide to collectively own something but still hire expert managers and pay them more than the subordinates (that is, not collectively-run it) - what's the difference?

 

[MHBDemon]

Do you have any data or support for your claim about Co-ops, because your narrow answer contradicts this definition without evidence?

“A co-operative is an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned and democratically-controlled enterprise.”

 

[ImTheCaptain]

Do you have any data or support for your claim about Co-ops, because your narrow answer contradicts this definition without evidence?

“A co-operative is an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned and democratically-controlled enterprise.”

i mean, my definition is the dictionary version, not that of the Co-Operative Alliance (who might have a vested interest in casting an infinitely wide net for membership purposes).

speaking of evidence, feel free to provide the examples I've asked for three times now

 

[ImTheCaptain]

for the record, there are exactly 9 members of this group in the US, a bunch of lobbyist groups and Nationwide Insurance (!)

 

[MHBDemon]

So you don’t want to provide any evidence of your claim?

 

[ImTheCaptain]

lol OK then. you already did it for me. your examples included some community banks and credit unions, a grocery association, a rural electic co op, a farming co op and Fortune top 70 company with 34k employees

 

[ImTheCaptain]

but yeah, your baggers and cashiers at the local IGA probably have lots of input on how the grocery store is run

 

[MHBDemon]

So you can’t provide any evidence that co-ops are only this one kinda thing that you thought they were. Got it.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

the example you provided as a counter example specifically only included the types of business I said co-ops mostly were, which is "groups of independently run businesses working together to share resources" and somehow I'm wrong?

again, i ask you how democratically run is the IGA or the small town credit union? not very, unless it's in Nowhere County, PA with zero competitors. even then it probably operates like a small business.

you can't even seem to name one actual business in the US that is actually run democratically

 

[RJKarl]

The closest thing to a communal/democratic business were the Amana Colonies in Iowa, but they mostly died out in the 30s.

 

[HuskyDeac]

http://equalexchange.coop/worker-owned

Good coffee...scones are meh.

 

[BarcaDeac]

man, can you believe that latest Fox News bullshit? what a bunch of bullshit.

 

[MHBDemon]

the example you provided as a counter example specifically only included the types of business I said co-ops mostly were, which is "groups of independently run businesses working together to share resources" and somehow I'm wrong?

again, i ask you how democratically run is the IGA or the small town credit union? not very, unless it's in Nowhere County, PA with zero competitors. even then it probably operates like a small business.

you can't even seem to name one actual business in the US that is actually run democratically

You’d just rather move goalposts. I don’t know of any current nationally recognized co-ops so when I name one you’ll just dismiss it for not meeting some arbitrary criteria. I know of co-ops that existed during civil rights movement like Freedom Farm Collective. My friend just started a marketing/PR co-op but it’s only 2 people. I’ll be sure to let you know when they are a Fortune 500 company.

 

[Gooner]

Still waiting to hear examples of how socialism when implemented made peoples life better. Capitalism made my families life better when they immigrated here for a chance to live the American dream and take advantage of a free market economy.

I will wait to hear how you think that socialized universal health care doesn't make lives better. How a mandatory minimum wage that allows all workers to make a living wage and begin to retain wealth for hopefully generations to come doesn't make lives better. How free higher education, especially in an era of severe social and economic stratification, doesn't make lives better.

Socializing some aspects of civilized society will not make everyone's lives better to a man. But there can be no question that it will vastly benefit society as a whole.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

You’d just rather move goalposts. I don’t know of any current nationally recognized co-ops so when I name one you’ll just dismiss it for not meeting some arbitrary criteria. I know of co-ops that existed during civil rights movement like Freedom Farm Collective. My friend just started a marketing/PR co-op but it’s only 2 people. I’ll be sure to let you know when they are a Fortune 500 company.

please do, b/c in 30+ years of institutional memory, I can't think of a real-life example of a company that's expanded beyond the partnership stage that operated in a DSA-approved manner, and not because i want to see it fail but because I'd like to see it succeed.

 

[MHBDemon]

please do, b/c in 30+ years of institutional memory, I can't think of a real-life example of a company that's expanded beyond the partnership stage that operated in a DSA-approved manner, and not because i want to see it fail but because I'd like to see it succeed.

It’s almost as if success is measured by capitals ability to exploit labor.

 

[RJKarl]

I will wait to hear how you think that socialized universal health care doesn't make lives better. How a mandatory minimum wage that allows all workers to make a living wage and begin to retain wealth for hopefully generations to come doesn't make lives better. How free higher education, especially in an era of severe social and economic stratification, doesn't make lives better.

Socializing some aspects of civilized society will not make everyone's lives better to a man. But there can be no question that it will vastly benefit society as a whole.

The question isn't whether or not one believes in socialism. It's the degree of socialism one supports.