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Catholic Church makes political announcement during service?

Deacfreak07 said:
Religion informs public life. Public life is inherently infused with politics. I just wish more Christians were more honest about what Jesus calls us/them to do and be concerned about. You know like helping the poor vs. hating gay folks.

FWIW, I don't really go to church anymore. I just think that even though religion is screwed up, it's free expression is an important element of the Constitution.

Tax exemption is as simple as revenue benchmarks. It's about the nature of the work, and the purpose of existence. American Cancer Society is rolling in dough, should they lose their nonprofit status? They need to endorse policies that support cancer research and other things valued by their mission. Religion is no different.
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It depends how they use that money. Are they building multi-million dollar facilities and advertising on television trying to draw people into their organization? Churches that build such extravagant facilities can at least pay property taxes on them.
 
Deadbolt said:
It depends how they use that money. Are they building multi-million dollar facilities and advertising on television trying to draw people into their organization? Churches that build such extravagant facilities can at least pay property taxes on them.
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That depends on how you interpret the Mission of a particular Religion. If an evangelical church is growing and spending money to convert more folks, then that is central to their Religion. I personally believe God is more concerned with what churches do for the poor, but that is a debate/conversation for within the walls of the Church, not the Capitol.

The question is where you would draw that line - revenue, square footage, size? What about other Nonprofits? A downtown YMCA would have to cut services to pay property taxes on a facility in a major city.
 
To the first point, I don't care what their mission is. I think it is irrelevant to this discussion.

To the second point, my knee jerk instinct is revenue level, but of course there would be details to iron out. As far as the YMCA, they collect membership dues, right? The YMCA near me charges $20 more per month than the private gym I go to. I have to question how non-profit the Y actually is in the first place, but I know that's not your point. In general, we probably need to look at all non-profits and reform what they can and can't do with their money and still remain tax-exempt.
 
Churches, to keep the same example...why are they building churches that look like MSG instead of using it to build a homeless shelter?
 
Deadbolt said:
To the first point, I don't care what their mission is. I think it is irrelevant to this discussion.

To the second point, my knee jerk instinct is revenue level, but of course there would be details to iron out. As far as the YMCA, they collect membership dues, right? The YMCA near me charges $20 more per month than the private gym I go to. I have to question how non-profit the Y actually is in the first place, but I know that's not your point. In general, we probably need to look at all non-profits and reform what they can and can't do with their money and still remain tax-exempt.
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But the Mission does matter. It's why the tax-exemption exists. Wake currently is a Not-for-Profit. The Mission matters because the surplus is legally required to be invested back into the organization rather than passed on to shareholders. Nonprofit is a misleading term. The point is not to avoid success, it's that your success goes back into other programs and services.

As far as the Y goes, those dollars you pay essentially subsidize other memberships and program participants via scholarships.

For many not-for-profit organizations, their tax exemption ends up being cheaper for the government than the government providing those services directly.
 
Deadbolt said:
Churches, to keep the same example...why are they building churches that look like MSG instead of using it to build a homeless shelter?
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I'm with you on that, but it cannot be the position of the government to determine what churches should do with their resources.

I think there should be better oversight into fraud within Churches and other not-for-profits, but the tax exemption is important.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
but the tax exemption is important.
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For Mormon churches? Catholic? How about Church of Satan? Or Branch Davidians? When does one man's religion become another's cult and at what point do you disenfranchise them from the same benefits you give others?
 
94Deac said:
For Mormon churches? Catholic? How about Church of Satan? Or Branch Davidians? When does one man's religion become another's cult and at what point do you disenfranchise them from the same benefits you give others?
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All of the above. When folks start kidnapping and harming people, that is different. I am not particularly religious, but religious liberty is important to our history or identity, and sometimes that means we will stand behind religions we don't like. There is not a religious movement in world history that at one point wasn't branded a cult by outsiders.

I am a pretty liberal guy, and I find myself very frustrated with churches more often than not, but they are important to their communities. While I loathe the prosperity gospel and the stance religions tend to take on equal rights. Ultimately, I think churches do more good than harm in America.
 
I don't know about other states, but in Georgia, there is no blanket property tax exemption for "non-profit" (or tax-exempt) organizations. Tax-exempt churches, hospitals, schools, and some other organizations are exempt, but only to the extent their property is used for exempt purposes (i.e., the sanctuary is exempt from ad valorem taxes, but the building the church owns and leases to a law firm is not). I think there are too many entanglement issues start delving into whether the sanctuary that looks like Madison Square Garden (but very clearly used for religious purposes) should be taxed and sanctuaries that serve their purpose, but are not grandiose should not. I think exempt use property and non-exempt use property is about as good as you can do. I don't necessarily agree with it, but the Constitutional issues are too messy to do much better.
 
Wakelaw2006 said:
I don't know about other states, but in Georgia, there is no blanket property tax exemption for "non-profit" (or tax-exempt) organizations. Tax-exempt churches, hospitals, schools, and some other organizations are exempt, but only to the extent their property is used for exempt purposes (i.e., the sanctuary is exempt from ad valorem taxes, but the building the church owns and leases to a law firm is not). I think there are too many entanglement issues start delving into whether the sanctuary that looks like Madison Square Garden (but very clearly used for religious purposes) should be taxed and sanctuaries that serve their purpose, but are not grandiose should not. I think exempt use property and non-exempt use property is about as good as you can do. I don't necessarily agree with it, but the Constitutional issues are too messy to do much better.
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Seems reasonable. That fits with UBIT requirements too.
 
Deadbolt said:
Churches, to keep the same example...why are they building churches that look like MSG instead of using it to build a homeless shelter?
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While I agree with you, the counter argument is that a prettier church encourages more people to seek God, thereby allowing Him to be further glorified and give even more people the chance to serve.

Plus a large and beautiful church worships and glorifies God even more.
 
Wrangor said:
Apparently nationwide the Catholic Church read a letter railing against Obama during Mass. Not a big fan of churches pushing a political agenda to be honest. What i mean by pushing is not that they can't have opinion, but in the sense of a mass communication from the top down for the members of the church to follow in step. Jesus wasn't political, I don't think our churches should be focused on politics either.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_...-anti-obama-letter-in-church/?tag=re1.channel
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I'm glad the liberal brethren here on OGBOARDS have finally seen the light and oppose politicking in the pulpit during Sunday morning services. President Barack Obama's Senior Advisor Valerie Jarrett gave a rousing anti-Republican message on the Sunday morning before MLK Day a couple weeks ago at Ebeneezer Baptist Church in Atlanta. Will you oppose her speech as strongly as you did the Catholic situation?

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/165...ior-advisor-speaks-at-ebenezer-baptist-church
 
I see a big difference between a worldwide religious body making a political statement and an individual church allowing someone to speak. I'd rather not see politics in the pulpit either way. Still, there is a huge difference between the Catholic Church and Valerie Jarrett.
 
PhDeac said:
I see a big difference between a worldwide religious body making a political statement and an individual church allowing someone to speak. I'd rather not see politics in the pulpit either way. Still, there is a huge difference between the Catholic Church and Valerie Jarrett.
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What jeopardizes tax exempt status is direct open support for a party or candidate. That's what Jarrett did blatantly.
 
ncsportsnut1 said:
What jeopardizes tax exempt status is direct open support for a party or candidate. That's what Jarrett did blatantly.
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If Jarrett is not affiliated with the church and if the church gives a representative of the Republican party (or the candidate running against Obama) the opportunity (not that they had to accept it) to speak at the same or a similar function, neither representative's (or candidate's) actions constitute participation or intervention in a political campaign by the church. Not saying that happened here, as it likely didn't, but who knows.

For what it's worth, I don't think the letter from the Catholic Church would constitute participation or intervention in a political campaign (I know Senator Grassley likely would, but I don't think the courts or the IRS would).

Whether any of these things should be allowed or not allowed as a policy matter is a wholly separate issue.
 
ncsportsnut1 said:
I'm glad the liberal brethren here on OGBOARDS have finally seen the light and oppose politicking in the pulpit during Sunday morning services. President Barack Obama's Senior Advisor Valerie Jarrett gave a rousing anti-Republican message on the Sunday morning before MLK Day a couple weeks ago at Ebeneezer Baptist Church in Atlanta. Will you oppose her speech as strongly as you did the Catholic situation?

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/165...ior-advisor-speaks-at-ebenezer-baptist-church
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I am conservative and oppose politicking in the pulpit no matter the person, including Obama. If I am a liberal then I am the most conflicted that ever existed.
 
Don't bring your politics to church, and don't bring your religion to Capitol Hill.
 
DeacDiggler said:
While I agree with you, the counter argument is that a prettier church encourages more people to seek God, thereby allowing Him to be further glorified and give even more people the chance to serve.

Plus a large and beautiful church worships and glorifies God even more.
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I'd argue that its a waste of money, and according to scripture its should make it harder for its parishiners to get into heaven. Something about the eye of a needle I believe.

But it seems that members of big money Chrisitian churchs love to conveniently forget that.

If they're correct, and there is a heaven, I imagine that most of them are closer to hell than they think.
 
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