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Charlotte FC / MLS Thread

I would also add that there's a reason Scottish soccer fans support their league and not Premier League clubs and Dutch fans support their league and not French or German clubs despite being so close to superior leagues, whereas American fans support a league across the ocean. In those countries, they have clubs and not franchises. Soccer is a unique sport and while I am all for doing it the "American way", I think there are lessons to be learned for us in how we develop MLS. More community connection, less focus on TV and the corporate side. Sounds like Minnesota is thinking the same way.
Also silly and in many instances false. I've been all over Scotland - spent several weeks there for work many years ago. There are loads of people there who support EPL clubs and many who support a local club and an EPL team. Why? Bc the Scottish league is not a real competition and they know it. In 51 of the last 55 years only two teams have won the league. And the last time a third team won was 38 years ago.
 
LOL. Dude. STFU. I've been to games all over the fucking world - Italy, Spain, Germany, England, Scotland, Colombia, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Costa Rica, Mexico, France, Denmark, Sweden. Spare me this bullshit about "franchises". Get out and live a bit. And MLS is fucking better than Scotland in terms of level of play. Fucking Celtic's idea of a big signing is a former Wake Forest player on the Canadian national team. Dumb.
I've been to plenty of games too and have family with professional appearances as high as Championship level in England and more recently the First Division in Belgium. Two siblings with underage Irish national team caps and current or former division 1 players. Other than calling it dumb you have given nothing to refute any of my points, whereas I laid out a logical argument using examples to demonstrate why I believe fans in this country often don't watch or support MLS, and fans in those other countries you listed do support their own clubs regardless of the perceived level of play.

Also, Johnston isn't a "big signing" for Celtic and the SPFL is absolutely better than MLS. The SPFL's second place side last year made a Europa League final and lost in extra time. I'm not sure Philly Union would have the quality for that. Guys that can't touch the first team at Celtic for more than a game or two at a time often come over here and become stars. Gary Mackay-Steven couldn't quite cut it at Celtic or Aberdeen and a year later was captaining NYCFC as their best player. Lewis Morgan is a similar story with nearly 100 MLS appearances and 21 goals in 2 years after playing 14 times for Celtic over the prior 3 years. Johnston is starting for Celtic due to injury and because they have extremely weak outside backs, but I also think it's stupid to say that because one MLS or former college player is playing for Celtic, it must be a low level of play. Jack Harrison has been tearing it up in the Premiership for how long now? Is that a low level of play?

Also, yea... you'd get laughed out of the room in the best case and chased out in the worst case for using the word "franchise" in the context of European soccer. See how people feel about MK Dons or how they react when an American owner uses a term such as "franchise"?
 
Also, Johnston isn't a "big signing" for Celtic and the SPFL is absolutely better than MLS. The SPFL's second place side last year made a Europa League final and lost in extra time. I'm not sure Philly Union would have the quality for that. Guys that can't touch the first team at Celtic for more than a game or two at a time often come over here and become stars. Gary Mackay-Steven couldn't quite cut it at Celtic or Aberdeen and a year later was captaining NYCFC as their best player. Lewis Morgan is a similar story with nearly 100 MLS appearances and 21 goals in 2 years after playing 14 times for Celtic over the prior 3 years. Johnston is starting for Celtic due to injury and because they have extremely weak outside backs, but I also think it's stupid to say that because one MLS or former college player is playing for Celtic, it must be a low level of play. Jack Harrison has been tearing it up in the Premiership for how long now? Is that a low level of play?
Pity Martinez was the South American footballer of the year. He won the Copa Libertadores. He sucked in MLS. Anyone can come up with cute annecdotes.
The SPL isn't even league. It's a farce. James Fowler played in the SPL for 17 years. His ruling after moving to Sunderland to coach is the SPL is the equivalent of England's League One. And there is no doubt MLS is better than England's League One.
 
Pity Martinez was the South American footballer of the year. He won the Copa Libertadores. He sucked in MLS. Anyone can come up with cute annecdotes.
The SPL isn't even league. It's a farce. James Fowler played in the SPL for 17 years. His ruling after moving to Sunderland to coach is the SPL is the equivalent of England's League One. And there is no doubt MLS is better than England's League One.
An argument about these two leagues, both of which I enjoy for different reasons, is so far from my point that we need to treat soccer as a community sport and not a collection of "franchises" if we want to grow the MLS. The FAI (Football Association of Ireland) is dealing with a league a level or two below MLS, and it's still seeing success winning over fans that would otherwise be watching EPL on TV by emphasizing the "support your local" angle. It's actually a pretty comparable situation given the fact that soccer is the third or fourth most popular sport in Ireland as it is here.

But while we're on this topic, we might as well set the record straight on the SPL being a good league. It's not cute anecdotes, it's watching both leagues and looking at the number of world class players that come out of each. Putting no research into this and just going off of memory, recent high profile players to go from Scotland to major careers in the Big 4 leagues in Europe include: Virgil Van Dijk (Celtic -> Liverpool), Andy Robertson (Dundee United -> Liverpool), Moussa Dembele (Celtic -> Lyon), Odsonne Edouard (Celtic -> Crystal Palace), John McGinn (Hibs -> Aston Villa), Victor Wanyama (Celtic -> Tottenham), Fraser Forster (Celtic -> Southampton), Kieran Tierney (Celtic -> Arsenal), Jeremie Frimpong (Celtic -> Bayer Leverkusen) and many players I'm forgetting. Don't think you see such a huge number of MLS players making major impacts in the top leagues in Europe despite the league being twice the size.

Now, if we want to grow MLS it frankly doesn't matter if it's better than the Scottish league because it's competing with the Premier League for fans. The thing that can give MLS a leg up on the EPL or La Liga in this country is the fact that the games take place in our cities, and we can make our clubs a part of our communities in a way Liverpool or Barcelona obviously never will be. Red Bulls will never be more popular than Benfica in Newark because the team is better, but it can be more popular because it represents the community and provides an opportunity to support a team in person and not on TV. That's the angle I see working for MLS.
 
There might be two or three clubs consistently performing better than the MLS standard but the leagues are fairly comparable on top to bottom quality.

Judging either by how their produce feeder talent for Europe is a poor benchmark.
 
There are actual answers to this debate:


The top of the Scottish League with Rangers and Celtic is obviously quite good, but it's a substantial drop from there. Across the board, the MLS is better, albeit by not a large margin.
 
is the arg that the league is good because good players are leaving Celtic to go to other leagues
 
another way to look at it: Premiership is incredibly top-heavy and 538 rates the top two in the top 100 globally, but the fourth best team is at 348

22 MLS teams rank higher than the 4th highest Premiership team

 
is the arg that the league is good because good players are leaving Celtic to go to other leagues
Interestingly, the 22 arg tails in to the Nate Silver methodology, given that the 538 rankings use Transfermarkt valuation of clubs as a metric.
 
It certainly isn’t the same argument though, because Nate Bronze doesn’t use the clubs’ outgoing transfers every year to rank teams, he uses club market value, which he says correlates strongly to how successful the club is on the field.
 
another way to look at it: Premiership is incredibly top-heavy and 538 rates the top two in the top 100 globally, but the fourth best team is at 348

22 MLS teams rank higher than the 4th highest Premiership team

It's only a 12-team league, so any argument saying "if you take out the Old Firm" is kind of bs imo, and is the same as saying "if you take out the Big 6" in England. Believe it or not, over the last few years the rest of the pack has been closer to the Old Firm in Scotland than the rest of the pack has been to the Big 6 in England, so it's not like the entire rest of the league is garbage, though there is obviously a steep drop-off from Celtic to a club like Motherwell just as there is from United and Arsenal to Brentford. The MLS naturally has way more parity than the EPL or SPL because unlike almost all other leagues in the world, the MLS has a draft and salary cap to keep teams relatively even.
 
we can prorate if you'd like, use quartiles, median, whatever -- you pick

or use most any list that you google that uses qualitative analysis

MLS is better and virtually everyone who rates and writes about such things agrees
 
It certainly isn’t the same argument though, because Nate Bronze doesn’t use the clubs’ outgoing transfers every year to rank teams, he uses club market value, which he says correlates strongly to how successful the club is on the field.
hmmmmmmmm
 
There might be two or three clubs consistently performing better than the MLS standard but the leagues are fairly comparable on top to bottom quality.

Judging either by how their produce feeder talent for Europe is a poor benchmark.
No. They aren't comparable on top to bottom quality. It really isn't even close. It's a two team league (and frankly a one team league of late). There are just three teams with a positive goal difference in the league. Guys like Alamada, Reynoso, Ruidiaz, Driussi, Velasco, Castellanos, Barco, Vela, Zelarayan, Insigne, etc. wouldn't sign for the likes of Hearts (one of the three teams with a positive goal difference) in a million years. There is zero comparison in terms of the depth of talent and how it is spread across MLS compared to the SPL. The Western Hemisphere produces a ton of high quality players and many of them are choosing to play in MLS (not surprising given the financial straights many clubs in our Hemisphere have been in for years). Toss in guys who come from other leagues in Europe and all the US and Canadian players. Get real, the SPL as a whole has zero chance of drawing the type of depth MLS now has across the board.

And then there are the guys like Bale or Chicharito who come and wrap up their careeers in MLS. Sure, they aren't what they once were. They're still a far cry better than Motherwell.
 
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It's only a 12-team league, so any argument saying "if you take out the Old Firm" is kind of bs imo, and is the same as saying "if you take out the Big 6" in England. Believe it or not, over the last few years the rest of the pack has been closer to the Old Firm in Scotland than the rest of the pack has been to the Big 6 in England, so it's not like the entire rest of the league is garbage, though there is obviously a steep drop-off from Celtic to a club like Motherwell just as there is from United and Arsenal to Brentford. The MLS naturally has way more parity than the EPL or SPL because unlike almost all other leagues in the world, the MLS has a draft and salary cap to keep teams relatively even.
The draft? As a means to promote parity? This isn't even a real discussion.
 
The draft? As a means to promote parity? This isn't even a real discussion.
Yes, the draft and salary cap promote parity in American sports including MLS. Is that not obvious? When you are bad, you receive a good draft pick. That promotes parity by giving the worst teams the best available picks to select draft eligible players. The salary cap obviously promotes parity by ensuring each team has roughly the same amount of money to spend on rosters outside of designated players.
 
It certainly isn’t the same argument though, because Nate Bronze doesn’t use the clubs’ outgoing transfers every year to rank teams, he uses club market value, which he says correlates strongly to how successful the club is on the field.
In that case 10 of the 12 SPL clubs are below the MLS average squad in value and 9 of the 12 are below the lowest MLS squad in value (which is an expansion club). Many of them are doubled up in value by the lowest MLS club's value.
 
Yes, the draft and salary cap promote parity in American sports including MLS. Is that not obvious? When you are bad, you receive a good draft pick. That promotes parity by giving the worst teams the best available picks to select draft eligible players. The salary cap obviously promotes parity by ensuring each team has roughly the same amount of money to spend on rosters outside of designated players.
lol dude

hardly anybody good comes through the draft any more -- this isn't 2003

nonetheless, I don't understand how intra-league parity affects the argument that -- on the balance -- MLS is better
 
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