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Coastal Carolina; 7PM- ESPN3

mebanedeac said:
Weird to feel so frustrated when we are winning. IMO, we are winning on talent not execution. We have better over-all talent than we have had in a long time. But our defense continues to stink. We cannot keep people out of the lane. Time and again their PG would fake and blow right by his man into the lane either to score at the rim or to dish. Love Dinos offensively but he is a defensive liability. His reactions are way too slow.

McClinton had the best game I have seen him play. He is very athletic!
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Agree, and it is a reflection on coaching IMO.

Tuesday could get very ugly. [Redacted]-level ugly.
 
X marks the spot in the season where the Deacs can't play down to the level of the competition anymore.

We will learn alot about this team Tuesday night.
 
inspectah said:
Agree, and it is a reflection on coaching IMO.

Tuesday could get very ugly. [Redacted]-level ugly.
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Offensive production and ball movement in particular looks much improved. Part of that is talent, but part is coaching.

Agree that defensive side of the ball needs tremendous improvement, but hard to be universally critical of coaching when offensive execution is impressive.
 
Poor defense means you never put a team away.

But the assist to turnover ratio was as high as I can remember us having. We have defensive liabilities but a bunch of kids who can pass the ball.
 
mebanedeac said:
Weird to feel so frustrated when we are winning. IMO, we are winning on talent not execution. We have better over-all talent than we have had in a long time. But our defense continues to stink. We cannot keep people out of the lane. Time and again their PG would fake and blow right by his man into the lane either to score at the rim or to dish. Love Dinos offensively but he is a defensive liability. His reactions are way too slow.

McClinton had the best game I have seen him play. He is very athletic!
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I think its more winning on offense not on defense. Both our talent level and our execution on offense are the best they have been in a long time.

On defense, the talent is there (minus a few obvious liabilities) but the execution is lacking. There were flashes in the first half when Codi was in the game where our defensive intensity looked really good, even then though we made too many mental mistakes. I know his presence in practice has raised the intensity level of practice so hopefully that trend continues in-game as Codi gets back up to full speed.

Two coaching things that I think would help our defense a lot are: 1. coaching our guards on better positioning so that if they get beat they are at least steering their man towards help, and 2. Coming up with a different strategy for when Dinos's man is the screener in a pick and roll. He just doesn't have the mental or physical tools to hedge and recover without sending the D into mayhem.
 
TenaciousKory said:
TVH played six minutes tonight. The comments in this thread make it sound like he played 20.
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It felt like 30. Any minutes for TVH is nuts. He is essentially a walk on with good hustle and walk on level talent on offense and defense.

Also, how can you only play John Collins 14 minutes. He should get a minimum of 25 minutes - absolute minimum. Danny Manning is flunking the easiest part of coaching:

Play your best players most of the time.

So simple and it would make this team much better. It would even help some with defense, our biggest liability. Vanhorn is bad on D. So is Dinos who should be giving some of his minutes to John Collins.
 
Chris Mack has made some suspect decisions. Latest one - he immediately jumped on the Eddie Ekiyor train and has already admitted him to Xavier.
 
This is a sports board, and the dissing of Manning on this board is great entertainment in and of itself. Manning and his staff know far more basketball than probably any poster here who is not presently coaching college-level ball or hasn't coached college-level ball.

I don't know who some of you all think gets credit for bringing to Wake the "talent level" you think we have, but the strength in our offense when it is executing and successful is the coaching, and when the players cease to execute the talent level we have can barely carry their ass. The weakness in our defense is not our coaching but the talent level, and for every defensive set Manning is consistently having to guess in advance which defensive liability he can best live with at that particular moment.

I try to avoid calling out players critically, and I am not going to do so here, but two players we have to have either starting or early off of the bench in our rotation pattern, for outside shooting in our offense, do not have (or so far have not demonstrated) the talent level to consistently execute their defensive responsibilities. That is two out of your top six or seven players. At least five times last night they were chasing down the lane the penetrator they were supposed to be defending. Like most good coaches Manning appears to prefer man defense. Manning's efforts to not have both of them on the floor when in man defense are compromised every time other players are hurt or in foul trouble, due to how deep our talent level isn't.

Every player is going to have an off-night offensively from time to time, but that shouldn't affect their defensive effort or effectiveness, and DT didn't let it affect his last night. Part of DT's foul trouble last night resulted from him having to come to provide primary or secondary help defense when he was far from help in his defensive responsibilities.

I am excited looking forward to the Xavier game. I know we're supposed to lose and probably badly, but I look forward to seeing our kids play it, which is something I could never have said two years ago. I am very pleased that Manning is our coach. I have huge expectations for our program. I anticipate there will be a time when this board goes from complaining about how he is somehow holding back this talent level to bemoaning his possibly leaving us for a Kansas or other big name with big bucks he cannot decline.
 
I'm not sold on his bench coaching. But he has already shown he can develop players. And he can identify and sign talent--we have guys other ACC teams would love to have. That is not something we have been able to say in some time.
 
1976Deac said:
This is a sports board, and the dissing of Manning on this board is great entertainment in and of itself. Manning and his staff know far more basketball than probably any poster here who is not presently coaching college-level ball or hasn't coached college-level ball.

I don't know who some of you all think gets credit for bringing to Wake the "talent level" you think we have, but the strength in our offense when it is executing and successful is the coaching, and when the players cease to execute the talent level we have can barely carry their ass. The weakness in our defense is not our coaching but the talent level, and for every defensive set Manning is consistently having to guess in advance which defensive liability he can best live with at that particular moment.
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I'm calling B.S. on that one. The Codi, Crawford, Hudson, Collins, Devin lineup has the talent to be very good defensively. And if Crawford and Hudson are having good shooting night (I need more of Hudson's mid-range game in my life) that lineup will be fine offensively as well. Dinos and Wilbekin are limited defensively from a talent (or stature in Wilbekin's case) level while McClinton is sometimes limited from a focus level.

If Wilbekin and Dinos are that important to our offense (they probably are), it's on the coaches to figure out how to manage their defensive liabilities. One way is to limit the time on the floor they spend together. Another is to make sure the guys who are talented defensively are playing with the proper intensity, and the third is to develop defensive schemes to compensate for their weaknesses.

Our plan when Dinos is involved in a pick and roll should not be for him to hedge hard and then recover to his man (or the open man if someone had to slide over to help). Everytime he tries that its pretty much guaranteed that the other team is going to find an easy shot if they move the ball. He's not going to develop the necessary lateral quickness or spatial awareness overnight. In the meantime come up with a different scheme (zone, going under the screen, or pushing the dribbler away from the screen both of which are easier on the big man).
 
To add to what 1976 said, Crab tried to guard #10 Wiggins in the second half and got absolutely torched. It was very deflating to see that.
 
There are a few coaches out there who have succeeded in building very good programs relying on a zone defense, like B-man at Syracuse, but not many. That would still require one hell of a recruiter. There have been good coaches who have succeeded in periodically putting together a very good team relying on a zone defense, that did not translate necessarily into developing a very good program, like Odom, for whom I am a fan. I'm not feeling like Manning is planning on trying to building a program that relies on a zone, at least not now at the expense of his first developing a man defense, but maybe I'm wrong about that.
 
I did not intend my post as a criticism of the coaching staff. Of course they recruited the talent and our offensive and defensive schemes seem essentially sound. Execution is on the players.

However in terms of defensive scheme I do wonder if certain line-ups do not almost necessitate some sort of zone. We have good players who may never be good man defenders.
 
There is no reason that Wake Forest should ever not have the defensive players from a talent standpoint to guard Coastal Carolina.

Our guards are atrocious at guarding.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
Our lineup at around the 8 minute mark of: Dinos, TVH, Wilbekin, Codi, and McClinton was one of the worst things I have ever seen.

It's obvious that Danny doesn't give a damn about anything except winning and making the team better for the future, but it's really frustrating in games like tonight where we should win by 15-20.

Big game on Tuesday night vs Xavier. Probably one of our biggest in 5+ years (maybe Syracuse two years ago rivals it).
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As we were letting our 12 point lead dwindle to 6-7 with poor offensive possessions and bonehead plays, I was wondering why Crawford and his 19/9 at that point was not on the floor. He made a bad turnover and sat for a long time down the stretch. Make the point but get him back out there. Manning's substitution patterns are really puzzling at times.
 
simosfrostyone said:
Poor defense means you never put a team away.

But the assist to turnover ratio was as high as I can remember us having. We have defensive liabilities but a bunch of kids who can pass the ball.
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Ball movement was at times in the second half the best I can recall in years (not saying much).
 
knowell said:
It felt like 30. Any minutes for TVH is nuts. He is essentially a walk on with good hustle and walk on level talent on offense and defense.

Also, how can you only play John Collins 14 minutes. He should get a minimum of 25 minutes - absolute minimum. Danny Manning is flunking the easiest part of coaching:

Play your best players most of the time.

So simple and it would make this team much better. It would even help some with defense, our biggest liability. Vanhorn is bad on D. So is Dinos who should be giving some of his minutes to John Collins.
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Collins isn't a very good defender yet. Better than Dinos, yes, but still not very good.
 
First game I've missed this season. So many lobs in the highlight video. Good to see. I think we play X tight.
 
1976Deac said:
This is a sports board, and the dissing of Manning on this board is great entertainment in and of itself. Manning and his staff know far more basketball than probably any poster here who is not presently coaching college-level ball or hasn't coached college-level ball.

I don't know who some of you all think gets credit for bringing to Wake the "talent level" you think we have, but the strength in our offense when it is executing and successful is the coaching, and when the players cease to execute the talent level we have can barely carry their ass. The weakness in our defense is not our coaching but the talent level, and for every defensive set Manning is consistently having to guess in advance which defensive liability he can best live with at that particular moment.

I try to avoid calling out players critically, and I am not going to do so here, but two players we have to have either starting or early off of the bench in our rotation pattern, for outside shooting in our offense, do not have (or so far have not demonstrated) the talent level to consistently execute their defensive responsibilities. That is two out of your top six or seven players. At least five times last night they were chasing down the lane the penetrator they were supposed to be defending. Like most good coaches Manning appears to prefer man defense. Manning's efforts to not have both of them on the floor when in man defense are compromised every time other players are hurt or in foul trouble, due to how deep our talent level isn't.

Every player is going to have an off-night offensively from time to time, but that shouldn't affect their defensive effort or effectiveness, and DT didn't let it affect his last night. Part of DT's foul trouble last night resulted from him having to come to provide primary or secondary help defense when he was far from help in his defensive responsibilities.

I am excited looking forward to the Xavier game. I know we're supposed to lose and probably badly, but I look forward to seeing our kids play it, which is something I could never have said two years ago. I am very pleased that Manning is our coach. I have huge expectations for our program. I anticipate there will be a time when this board goes from complaining about how he is somehow holding back this talent level to bemoaning his possibly leaving us for a Kansas or other big name with big bucks he cannot decline.
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Excellent post!!
 
RChildress107 said:
I'm calling B.S. on that one. The Codi, Crawford, Hudson, Collins, Devin lineup has the talent to be very good defensively. And if Crawford and Hudson are having good shooting night (I need more of Hudson's mid-range game in my life) that lineup will be fine offensively as well.


Would like to see DM play this lineup more and see if it can gel. The athleticism would be off the charts and the entire team can run the floor. I think the ability to defend, offensive rebound, and get easy buckets in transition would outweigh lack of 3-point shooting from Dino/MW.
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