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Court to DEA: Don't Point Gun at 11 YO's Head

wfumike02 said:
1. Agree
2. Depends - this is something that is changing.
3. Also something that is changing.

What state are you in? Are you an attorney? I'd be interested to hear some examples and see how they are similar to or different from where I am.
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Yes. Florida.
 
I take it you are in criminal defense? Does Florida have min/mans for simple possession (or for that matter do you ever see people getting sent to jail for simple possession)? What kinds of min/mans do you have for dealers?
 
I believe it is the government's responsibility to admit when it is wrong instead of covering its backside. I am not a lawyer but it seems it should not be a government's position that it will attempt to defend any action by its agents. The agents can get attorneys who can fulfill that part. Just admit your people screwed up.

One of the most outrageous aspects of the WOD is when the government confiscates private property than is alleged to be drug-related, finds it doesn't have a case and still makes the owner spend thousands of dollars to get the property back. Perhaps one of our WOD advocates can defend this.
 
wfumike02 said:
I take it you are in criminal defense? Does Florida have min/mans for simple possession (or for that matter do you ever see people getting sent to jail for simple possession)? What kinds of min/mans do you have for dealers?
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Well, I was a prosecutor for many years first before I left for private practice.

The way it works in Florida is that trafficking charges encompass possession and sale. So, there are not seperate min mans for possession v. sale. One of my major problems with our drug laws. Also, there are enhancements for sale of drugs within a 1000 ft of whatever. In my prosecution days, we often joked that they should make a charge of sale of cocaine NOT within a 1000 ft of an aggravtor because it's tougher to do.

Anyway, the only min man for a sale charge is when it's within a 1000 ft of a school. That carries a 3 year min man.

Like I said, once it reaches a certain weight, whether your possessing it or selling it, the min mans kick in. The weight varies from drug to drug. The min man levels (depending on weight) are 3, 7 and 15 years. My biggest problem are the pill cases. The weights are extremely low - 4 grams. In some cases, you can have something like 8 pills and reach trafficking weight. Or, sometimes when an addict doctor shops and gets two prescriptions for oxys...that's now technically trafficking.

Regarding simple possession...yes, I've seen many people get sent to jail for simple possession. Sometimes prison. Now, clearly we're not talking about first time offenders here. I would say, in my experience, people dont get sent to jail for simple possession until their third time.
 
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How one country is going to legalize weed.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/uruguay-aims-to-legalize-marijuana-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/

The good: José Mujica, Uruguay’s president, announced that he will send a bill to Congress to legalize the production and sale of marijuana. Consumption was already decriminalized in the South American nation. If the bill is approved, and it seems to have enough support in Congress to pass, Uruguay would become the first country to fully legalize marijuana.

The bad: The bill stipulates that the government will be in charge of the production and sale of marijuana. Even though having a marijuana state-owned monopoly is better than prohibition, it would be far better to have the private sector run the business under an appropriate tax and regulatory regime. Governments should not be involved in the drug business.

The ugly: Marijuana users who want to legally purchase the drug would have to register with the government. Moreover, they would be limited in the number of cigarettes they can buy per month. However, there are good reasons to believe that not many people will rush to a government agency to register as a marijuana user. And imposing a limit on the amount of joints that a person can buy legally just means that any extra consumption will be provided by illegal sources. Thus, I doubt that in practice the bill will be very effective at achieving its goals of getting rid of the black market and fighting street crime.
 
Les Grossman said:
Well, I was a prosecutor for many years first before I left for private practice.

The way it works in Florida is that trafficking charges encompass possession and sale. So, there are not seperate min mans for possession v. sale. One of my major problems with our drug laws. Also, there are enhancements for sale of drugs within a 1000 ft of whatever. In my prosecution days, we often joked that they should make a charge of sale of cocaine NOT within a 1000 ft of an aggravtor because it's tougher to do.

Anyway, the only min man for a sale charge is when it's within a 1000 ft of a school. That carries a 3 year min man.

Like I said, once it reaches a certain weight, whether your possessing it or selling it, the min mans kick in. The weight varies from drug to drug. The min man levels (depending on weight) are 3, 7 and 15 years. My biggest problem are the pill cases. The weights are extremely low - 4 grams. In some cases, you can have something like 8 pills and reach trafficking weight. Or, sometimes when an addict doctor shops and gets two prescriptions for oxys...that's now technically trafficking.

Regarding simple possession...yes, I've seen many people get sent to jail for simple possession. Sometimes prison. Now, clearly we're not talking about first time offenders here. I would say, in my experience, people dont get sent to jail for simple possession until their third time.
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Interesting. I practice in Delaware. We basically have three drug offenses: Possession, Aggravated Possession (like trafficking, based on weight), and Possession With Intent / Delivery. Possession is always a misdemeanor (grading depends on aggravating factors, such as 300' of a school). You will pretty much never go to jail on a possession charge unless there are multiple VOP's on the same charge. And some people will ask for a short jail term rather than probation but that is rare. Aggravated Possession and PWID can be a Class D felony (0-8 years), a Class C felony (0-15), or a Class B (2-25), depending on amount, prior convictions, or aggravating factors. The only time there is a min/man is if you get to the Class B level and it's only 2 years, but obviously the guidelines can call for more.

This was put in place here in the last year. I believe the framework is modeled after New York. It can be a bit of a headache to deal with. We used to have more min/mans under the old laws. Ironically, we are seeing more people who wouldn't qualify for min/man time under either law get jail time for Agg Pos and PWID than we did under the old setup because now the judges are being told to simply utilize the guidelines. Before a first offense for dealing was pretty much always probation no matter what. Now, a PWID charge if you have a prior violent felony is almost certainly going to get you some jail time (usually a year or less).
 
wfumike02 said:
Interesting. I practice in Delaware. We basically have three drug offenses: Possession, Aggravated Possession (like trafficking, based on weight), and Possession With Intent / Delivery. Possession is always a misdemeanor (grading depends on aggravating factors, such as 300' of a school). You will pretty much never go to jail on a possession charge unless there are multiple VOP's on the same charge. And some people will ask for a short jail term rather than probation but that is rare. Aggravated Possession and PWID can be a Class D felony (0-8 years), a Class C felony (0-15), or a Class B (2-25), depending on amount, prior convictions, or aggravating factors. The only time there is a min/man is if you get to the Class B level and it's only 2 years, but obviously the guidelines can call for more.

This was put in place here in the last year. I believe the framework is modeled after New York. It can be a bit of a headache to deal with. We used to have more min/mans under the old laws. Ironically, we are seeing more people who wouldn't qualify for min/man time under either law get jail time for Agg Pos and PWID than we did under the old setup because now the judges are being told to simply utilize the guidelines. Before a first offense for dealing was pretty much always probation no matter what. Now, a PWID charge if you have a prior violent felony is almost certainly going to get you some jail time (usually a year or less).
Click to expand...

The only misdemanor drug charge is possession of marijuana under 20 grams. That's it. Everything else is a felony.

Simple possession is a 3rd degree felony (punishable up to 5 years)
Sale charges are 2nd degree felonies (punishable up to 15 years)
Trafficking and Sales w/in 1000 ft are 1st degree (punishable up to 30 years)

Like I said on the trafficking, every drug's weight is different, but every drug has three weight thresholds. If you hit the lowest, it's a min man of 3 years, the second, a min man of 7, and the third is a min man of 15.

Also, in Florida there is no parole. Everyone does 85% of their time. And, whoever is sentenced on a min man...they must do their time day for day. No good time.
 
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Wow - I'd definitely agree that simple possession for a user being a felony is excessive.
 
yeah. not only that, but for whatever dumb reason, they also suspend your license for two years on a drug conviction.

so, not only are addicts saddled with a felony conviction, but they also cant drive. it really becomes a viscious cycle for these people that they cant get out of...and it only leads to more arrests. it was one of my biggest problems with the system when i was a prosecutor.
 
Les, what's the logic for the license suspension?
 
Many states will suspend a driver's license for a drug conviction. It's 6 months where I am, but they also allow work licenses. The reasoning is the same as suspending a license for a DUI - you don't want addicts getting behind the wheel, and it does make sense on some level. However, now that we are moving to a more treatment-oriented approach to how we handle drugs in the criminal justice system - rightly so - it would make more sense to tie the term of the suspension to successfully completing treatment.
 
I understand the concept, but it's something I always disagreed with. There is a direct nexus between DL suspension and DUI. The charge involves driving. There is none in drug cases.
 
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