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Crazy lineups

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wfu22fan

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Continue to hurt us. CMM, RW, CH, JC and Dinos ( was GM in there too at one point?) cost us a 15 point lead early in the second half while BC, DT, and MW sat. This lineup had no chance of being productive. The constant substitutions by Manning destroy chemistry and result in many head scratching lineups. It's frustrating to watch. Dan Collins' latest MTOW discusses this subject.
 
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Couldn't agree Moore (pun intended). Moore doesn't even sniff the court against Duke, yet DM inserts him last night ahead of Collins. He has a block and killer dunk, and DM pulls him, never to see the floor again. How do you explain that?! There is seemingly no pattern to his rotations, unless he has Childress spinning a hidden roulette wheel with players instead of numbers.
 
Once all the state bigs got into foul trouble and they went small there was no one on the court he could guard.
 
Taking Van Horn out of the rotation has definitely hurt us.

Got ya didn't I? Seriously, that is the biggest question mark I have with Manning right now, he seems to have little feel for substitution patterns and line ups. I'm sure one strategy last night was to wear down a State team with a short bench, but when your top 6 or 7 players are better than their 6 or 7 rotation, you need to be playing those guys the bulk of the minutes. It seems Manning doesn't want to play guys for more than short stretches without getting them out. There's nothing wrong with playing guys 30+ minutes a game though.
 
liveanddiedeac said:
Taking Van Horn out of the rotation has definitely hurt us.

Got ya didn't I? Seriously, that is the biggest question mark I have with Manning right now, he seems to have little feel for substitution patterns and line ups. I'm sure one strategy last night was to wear down a State team with a short bench, but when your top 6 or 7 players are better than their 6 or 7 rotation, you need to be playing those guys the bulk of the minutes. It seems Manning doesn't want to play guys for more than short stretches without getting them out. There's nothing wrong with playing guys 30+ minutes a game though.
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The playing time from last night is as follows: CMM 36, DT 33, Dinos 30, Crawford 26, Hudson 25, MW 21, Watson 13, Collins 10, McClinton 3, Moore 3.
 
Hard to argue too much with the playing time last night overall. I agree there are likely some better lineups that we could be putting together. I do agree with the bigs in foul trouble Moore likely didn't have anyone to guard in the second.
 
wfu22fan said:
Continue to hurt us. CMM, RW, CH, JC and Dinos ( was GM in there too at one point?) cost us a 15 point lead early in the second half while BC, DT, and MW sat. This lineup had no chance of being productive. The constant substitutions by Manning destroy chemistry and result in many head scratching lineups. It's frustrating to watch. Dan Collins' latest MTOW discusses this subject.
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Indeed, strange patterns abound. Good to see DC now blogging about it. If it continues, it will surely hurt our chances of going .500 or better in conference.
 
Rafi said:
The playing time from last night is as follows: CMM 36, DT 33, Dinos 30, Crawford 26, Hudson 25, MW 21, Watson 13, Collins 10, McClinton 3, Moore 3.
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Surprised Codi was on the floor that much. We played some guys more than I realized, but still I think we're seeing too many different lineups being trotted out there and Manning may be better served to stick with maybe 3 combinations of lineups, when injuries or fouls don't force otherwise. I wonder how many different combinations of lineups we played last night and during the season so far?
 
I think part of the problem is that we have 10 guys who can all provide value when they are on the floor, but all bring something different to the table. Manning is starting to figure out how to put all those pieces together. I'm fine with Manning trying out a bunch of different lineups, since we have the versatility to play a bunch of lineups.

My main complaint is that Manning seems to struggle matching his lineups to what the other team has out there and to time and score. This results in our talent being used inefficiently.
 
The sub patterns seem to have no basis in the flow of the game. BC starts off hot and comes out before the under 16 time out. Moore doesnt play at all against Duke, is the first sub up last night and plays well but doesnt see the floor again. Similarly, we sometimes have a very odd combination of players on the court at the same time. Last night, we had Rondale and McClinton in at the same time, effectively playing 3 on 5 on offense. Or, our starters run out a nice lead to start the 2nd half, only to sit nearly all of them and immediately give up a 16-0 run to let State back in the game.

Seems to be very little thought given to time and place as it relates to sub patterns and lineups. I think this is where 2 years of HC experience prior to Wake really shows up, plus a collective lack of experience by our entire staff. I'd really like to see either Ballard or Woodberry move on after the season and for Danny to bring in a former HC who can help him through game management.
 
It's fine to experiment with lineups. Every game presents completely different matchups and we have a deep bench capable of contributing in different ways. However, Moore was killing it. Wish we could have seen more of him to get his confidence higher. Last night at the 4 and 5 spots, there were only 17 min last night not played by DT and Dinos. Moore and Collins played 13. There just aren't minutes when Dinos is on.
CMM plays a lot of minutes. I'd like to see him and Crawford playing equal time. Maybe the 4th foul on Crawford accounted for some of the disparity.
 
RChildress107 said:
My main complaint is that Manning seems to struggle matching his lineups to what the other team has out there and to time and score. This results in our talent being used inefficiently.
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Manning does seem to default to a predetermined or blueprinted sub pattern, especially in the first half. And I'm sure some of that is simply part of the game plan. However, in addition to failing to recognize those instances where he needs to match the other team rather than let a player sit on the bench too long just to fulfill a prescribed or recommended amount of rest, he also has an annoying habit of pulling a guy (see Crawford in the first half) too quickly when he'd be better off riding the hot hand and making the other team call timeout, adjust their lineup or better yet, foul us more because we have a superior lineup (last night we had a sure advantage with CMM, BC, Hud/MW, Dinos & DT). I feel like we could have put the game away last night had we left BC and DT in until the under 12 media T/O. They hardly seemed tired and Crawford was playing out of his mind with spectacular passing and that swaggy confidence that seems to inspire his mates.
 
Manning needs to work hard to find the optimal lineup for getting Dinos the ball in position to shoot. He's just too much of an offensive weapon with a unique skillset for this team (3 point shooting) and typically a defensive liability to not focus the offense on getting him open shots when he's in the game.
 
PhDeac said:
Manning needs to work hard to find the optimal lineup for getting Dinos the ball in position to shoot. He's just too much of an offensive weapon with a unique skillset for this team (3 point shooting) and typically a defensive liability to not focus the offense on getting him open shots when he's in the game.
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The starting lineup seemed to work pretty well last night for it.
 
Tin Cup said:
Seems to be very little thought given to time and place as it relates to sub patterns and lineups. I think this is where 2 years of HC experience prior to Wake really shows up, plus a collective lack of experience by our entire staff. I'd really like to see either Ballard or Woodberry move on after the season and for Danny to bring in a former HC who can help him through game management.
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Wow, that's a leap. I have a feeling Manning enjoys the control and trusts his own judgment, maybe sometimes to a fault. He seems stubborn in the sense that he doesn't call TO when they are obviously needed, especially when there is a group of guys on the floor that are choking away a big lead. Not sure a different assistant coach is gonna change that.
 
Doggus said:
Wow, that's a leap. I have a feeling Manning enjoys the control and trusts his own judgment, maybe sometimes to a fault. He seems stubborn in the sense that he doesn't call TO when they are obviously needed, especially when there is a group of guys on the floor that are choking away a big lead. Not sure a different assistant coach is gonna change that.
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I'm not suggesting either be fired. But if they moved up the ranks at another school and we had an opening, a Steve Robinson/Bobby Lutz type of assistant could be a huge boost.
 
Hopefully one benefit we will see manifest later in the season is better play from our best 3 or 4 players because Danny was able to get them valuable rest throughout the early season and first half of the ACC sked. It's a fine balance to be sure, as we are a much better team with BC on the court -- we are marginally better because of BC than we are worse without CMM no matter what other 4 he's with when BC is in foul trouble or resting -- but the heavy mins from earlier this year may catch up to Craw in mid to late Feb. But that still doesn't explain Manning's reluctance to squeeze a bit more out of Moore, Collins and even McClinton when Hudson is scuffling on offense.
 
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Why the Deac Not said:
Hopefully one benefit we will see manifest later in the season is better play from our best 3 or 4 players because Danny was able to get them valuable rest throughout the early season and first half of the ACC sked.
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These are 19-22 year old "kids" playing basketball. Unless injured, they are recovered by the time they wake up the next morning. A few minutes rest in a game might benefit them in that game, but it has nothing to do with their play later in the season. If 15-20 of rest in 3-5 minute spurts during weekly games is the answer to being better at the end of the year, just shorten a couple of practices each week by 10 minutes and we should be good.
 
I'm thinking the mental fatigue and stress of playing 35-38 mpg is a lot more dangerous than the actual physical wear and tear. Come on Racer, you know teams with short benches fade all the time in late Feb. It's an annual tradition in NCAA MBB.

Even though I agree with you as far as their youth and ability to bounce back quickly, I'm trying to look at this from the coach's POV as he probably understands the rigors of conference play in late January and throughout Feb better than you and I could ever hope to imagine.

Didn't Skip once say he regretted practicing so hard throughout the season -- legendary rebounding drills come to mind -- when perhaps some shorter, more focused practices might have proved beneficial later in the season on the court?
 
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