EU vote-Brexit...what will it mean to us?

[knowell]

That's the same as capitalism though - they are both enforced through strong central authorities. Capitalism without strong central control is anarchy, and that benefits no one. The differentiation between the USA and somewhere like here in Austria isn't "strong central control v. no central control" - it's just variations on where the boundaries of that control are.

Agree to some extent. You do not need a strong coercive government to allow free markets to flourish. You do need enough to protect the participants.

 

[BobStackFan4Life]

We're out of touch with ordinary, 'ghastly' Britons, says ex-BBC chief: Leaked email says it 'ignores and despises' millions because they do not embrace liberal views

The BBC 'ignores and despises' millions of Britons because they do not embrace the liberal views of a metropolitan elite, a leaked memo has revealed.
The Corporation was said to be 'completely bewildered' about how to respond to the concerns of 'ghastly' ordinary people.
There would be no end to the issues facing the broadcaster until the 'London bubble' had burst, said a report by David Cowling, former head of the BBC's political research unit.

Sensitive subjects that worried households were barely acknowledged by the political class, his analysis claimed.
Although he did not name specific issues, Mr Cowling would almost certainly have in mind mass immigration – routinely among the biggest fears of voters – and the way foreign arrivals have changed communities in the UK.
For decades, politicians and the BBC have been accused of censoring debate, branding as 'racist' those who voiced concerns about the perceived erosion of our national identity or the pressure on jobs, housing, schools and healthcare.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3657284/We-touch-ordinary-ghastly-Britons-says-ex-BBC-chief-Leaked-email-says-ignores-despises-millions-not-embrace-liberal-views.html?ITO=1490

 

[vadimivich]

What country do you live in?

I think Tuffalo was talking about actual socialism, at least that is how I interpreted it. Pretty much all capitalist systems today are some hybrid with a certain amount of socialism mixed in.

The stronger the economy, the more socialism it can handle. Push it to far and you may be looking at Greece.

Location
Wien, Österreich

I live in Austria, in Vienna specifically. I live in what is probably the "reddest" city in the western world, which has had a mayor from the Social Democratic Party of Austria (SPÖ) for more than 70 years now unbroken and where more than half of all families live in socially owned or socially subsidized housing (like the massive Karl Marx-Hof complex which houses more than 10,000 people and is the largest social housing project in the west). It's also routinely named the #1 quality of life city in the world, is extraordinarily safe and despite a hugely diverse population sees very little civic strife between various religious and ethnic groups.

Austria, and Vienna in particular, is very, very red. And it's worked extremely well here for the same reason many systems can work (and opposite the reason that governments and countries completely fail) - people are vocal and active in politics, vote out underperforming, corrupt or scandalous elected officials and hold them to a high standard. There's a strong respect for the rule of law and very low corruption. Effective governance has a lot more to do with being effective than about the belief structure behind it. People treat politics way too damn much like religion and not nearly enough like the boring day to day responsibility that it really is.

 

[birdman]

The problem with this post is that Trump and Brexit are bad, but Bernie is actually good

This is absolutely correct. Yes Bernie and his supporters are angry, but they direct that anger much closer to the cause of that inequality than the "leave" campaign or Trump. Bernie-ites assign blame and direct anger at the corporate Oligarchy that runs most of our government in the US. I don't recall Bernie say one single negative thing about immigration, except to have compassion for the immigrants.

The entire Trump campaign and the Leave campaign was the real world manifestation of the Mark Baum quote at the end of the Big Short "I have a feeling, in a few years people are going to be doing what they always do when the economy tanks. They will be blaming immigrants and poor people."...while Bernie has been out there trying to call bullshit on every-fucking-thing.

 

[knowell]

Location
Wien, Österreich

I live in Austria, in Vienna specifically. I live in what is probably the "reddest" city in the western world, which has had a mayor from the Social Democratic Party of Austria (SPÖ) for more than 70 years now unbroken and where more than half of all families live in socially owned or socially subsidized housing (like the massive Karl Marx-Hof complex which houses more than 10,000 people and is the largest social housing project in the west). It's also routinely named the #1 quality of life city in the world, is extraordinarily safe and despite a hugely diverse population sees very little civic strife between various religious and ethnic groups.

Austria, and Vienna in particular, is very, very red. And it's worked extremely well here for the same reason many systems can work (and opposite the reason that governments and countries completely fail) - people are vocal and active in politics, vote out underperforming, corrupt or scandalous elected officials and hold them to a high standard. There's a strong respect for the rule of law and very low corruption. Effective governance has a lot more to do with being effective than about the belief structure behind it. People treat politics way too damn much like religion and not nearly enough like the boring day to day responsibility that it really is.

That is interesting. I am not really familiar with Austrian politics. The population of Austria is around 8 1/2 million. Do you think that kind of system could translate to a country of 300 million like the US or would a government with that much centralization fail when amplified to an American scale.

 

[dartsndeacs]

among the highest standard of living in the world? Austria doesn't even crack the top 20 in the HDI. Ya know what does crack the top 10? America. Suck it, Europe.

 

[PhDeac]

That is interesting. I am not really familiar with Austrian politics. The population of Austria is around 8 1/2 million. Do you think that kind of system could translate to a country of 300 million like the US or would a government with that much centralization fail when amplified to an American scale.

Scale isn't why it wouldn't work. American people are why it wouldn't work. Your response is an example. You're so threatened by socialism that you immediately seek to discredit it.

 

[vadimivich]

That is interesting. I am not really familiar with Austrian politics. The population of Austria is around 8 1/2 million. Do you think that kind of system could translate to a country of 300 million like the US or would a government with that much centralization fail when amplified to an American scale.

There's parts that would be very successful (Vienna's historic focus on affordable public housing located across the entire city to prevent the creation of ghettos, better integrate societies and create more equitable schools, etc) and parts that would be very difficult (Austria already struggles with healthcare and services for some of the remote parts of the country, would be even harder on US scale). But that's not the point I was making, it was that various democratic systems can work and work very well when executed with efficiency and a focus on end results, not on the nearly religious fever of the belief system. We focus WAY too much on the political beliefs and not nearly enough on implementation of day to day to life.

among the highest standard of living in the world? Austria doesn't even crack the top 20 in the HDI. Ya know what does crack the top 10? America. Suck it, Europe.

Qualify of Life != Standard of Living. Vienna has been named the highest qualify of life city in the world something like 6 or 7 years in a row now, and the top 10 is virtually all German, Austrian and Swiss cities ... they are safe, the quality of education is very high, corruption is very low, healthcare is good, etc.

 

[vadimivich]

Scale isn't why it wouldn't work. American people are why it wouldn't work. Your response is an example. You're so threatened by socialism that you immediately seek to discredit it.

I think at least huge chunks of American style capitalism could work here, and democratic socialism could work in the states. The biggest difference I find between here and the US is that more people are involved in politics here (much higher voter turnouts - routinely 70-80%), more focused on the end result and not married to belief systems quite as hard and much less religious. This also leads to wild swings in national politics and it's not nearly as stable on a national level as US politics are - people flock to or abandon political parties lightning fast in a way that would never happen in the US (though the 2 main parties have been in power for a very long time - it's the fringes that vacillate dramatically).

American Protestantism is extremely "of the book" and I do wonder if the effect that has on US politics is that people treat their politics a bit like their religion - very inflexible and bound by a sense of absolute right in their beliefs.

 

[dartsndeacs]

There's parts that would be very successful.

Were ya educated over there or here?

 

[knowell]

Scale isn't why it wouldn't work. American people are why it wouldn't work. Your response is an example. You're so threatened by socialism that you immediately seek to discredit it.

Interesting that you found my question an attempt to discredit socialism.

Think that's all about you, doctor.

 

[BobStackFan4Life]

Austria's headed hard right thanks to immigration.

 

[RJKarl]

VAD, wouldn't what you called "reddest city" be considered fairly liberal almost lefty in the US?

As you described, there are massive amounts of full and partially government housing. That's fairly liberal.

Isn't there universal healthcare?

Aren't there tuition free universities in Austria? Aren't many of the others extremely inexpensive due to government subsidies?

Don't they have subsidized early life child care for all families?

I saw something that said Austrian workers get the most time off in the world. http://247wallst.com/special-report/2013/06/06/countries-where-workers-get-the-most-time-off/3/

Those kind of things sound left of the US to me.

 

[vadimivich]

Red is the color of socialism globally. It's only in the US that red is the right. Read my post again, keeping that context in mind.

 

[vadimivich]

Were ya educated over there or here?

Both. Undergraduate in the US, some post grad and linguistics here at the University of Vienna.

 

[vadimivich]

Austria's headed hard right thanks to immigration.

We'll see. The last presidential election (a few months ago) was nuts, but a green party candidate was elected.

It does seem Vienna and the rest of the country are far apart right now, with Vienna very left and the countryside some form of socialist nationalism with far right authoritarianism thrown in. It's a volatile mix.

 

[vadimivich]

And I don't want this to come off as some "Vad tells us how Europe is better" hijack. Europe in many ways is a fucking mess, and struggles with many of the same problems the US does - but with more fragmentation and historical resentments built in. I'm always a bit leery of the lack of protection for civil rights here (especially in the German speaking world) as compared to the US, and I find some things just completely laughable.

I was merely trying to list an example of a situation where dedicated democratic socialism works, and works well. People always bring up Venezuela or something as a negative, but never Austria or the like as the counter balance. Good governance has a lot more to do with what you actually do than what your belief system is. And that's universal around the globe.

 

[RJKarl]

Red is the color of socialism globally. It's only in the US that red is the right. Read my post again, keeping that context in mind.

That answers it. I was reading "red" in the US context. Thanks...

 

[TuffaloDeac10]

What country do you live in?

I think Tuffalo was talking about actual socialism, at least that is how I interpreted it. Pretty much all capitalist systems today are some hybrid with a certain amount of socialism mixed in.

The stronger the economy, the more socialism it can handle. Push it to far and you may be looking at Greece.

I was talking about actual socialism, by which I mean the programs of socialist parties. It's quite diverse, but a lot of it's really good.

Location
Wien, Österreich

I live in Austria, in Vienna specifically. I live in what is probably the "reddest" city in the western world, which has had a mayor from the Social Democratic Party of Austria (SPÖ) for more than 70 years now unbroken and where more than half of all families live in socially owned or socially subsidized housing (like the massive Karl Marx-Hof complex which houses more than 10,000 people and is the largest social housing project in the west). It's also routinely named the #1 quality of life city in the world, is extraordinarily safe and despite a hugely diverse population sees very little civic strife between various religious and ethnic groups.

Austria, and Vienna in particular, is very, very red. And it's worked extremely well here for the same reason many systems can work (and opposite the reason that governments and countries completely fail) - people are vocal and active in politics, vote out underperforming, corrupt or scandalous elected officials and hold them to a high standard. There's a strong respect for the rule of law and very low corruption. Effective governance has a lot more to do with being effective than about the belief structure behind it. People treat politics way too damn much like religion and not nearly enough like the boring day to day responsibility that it really is.

Karl Marx-Hof is just amazing.

Massive, mega-block project with integrated stuff/services. The scale is kinda mind-blowing, and in a much better way than the Le Corbusier trash you find in US public housing. It was used as a fortress by the reds during the brief Austrian civil war (which they lost to the Austro-fascists )

VAD, wouldn't what you called "reddest city" be considered fairly liberal almost lefty in the US?

As you described, there are massive amounts of full and partially government housing. That's fairly liberal.

Isn't there universal healthcare?

Aren't there tuition free universities in Austria? Aren't many of the others extremely inexpensive due to government subsidies?

Don't they have subsidized early life child care for all families?

I saw something that said Austrian workers get the most time off in the world. http://247wallst.com/special-report/2013/06/06/countries-where-workers-get-the-most-time-off/3/

Those kind of things sound left of the US to me.

It's a disgrace that the GOP has appropriated the color red.

And I don't want this to come off as some "Vad tells us how Europe is better" hijack. Europe in many ways is a fucking mess, and struggles with many of the same problems the US does - but with more fragmentation and historical resentments built in. I'm always a bit leery of the lack of protection for civil rights here (especially in the German speaking world) as compared to the US, and I find some things just completely laughable.

I was merely trying to list an example of a situation where dedicated democratic socialism works, and works well. People always bring up Venezuela or something as a negative, but never Austria or the like as the counter balance. Good governance has a lot more to do with what you actually do than what your belief system is. And that's universal around the globe.

The thing about governance is it's legitimately difficult.

 

[Biff Tannen]

Can't stop laughing.