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F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

why is this sad?

I get it from a training perspective. Sad for a commielib like me who has a higher (perhaps unrealistic or naive) bar from a public safety standpoint. Too many accidents and too much overreach occurring with law enforcement and unarmed citizens for my comfort level.
 
I get it from a training perspective. Sad for a commielib like me who has a higher (perhaps unrealistic or naive) bar from a public safety standpoint. Too many accidents and too much overreach occurring with law enforcement and unarmed citizens for my comfort level.

ok
 
I get it from a training perspective. Sad for a commielib like me who has a higher (perhaps unrealistic or naive) bar from a public safety standpoint. Too many accidents and too much overreach occurring with law enforcement and unarmed citizens for my comfort level.

I don't think the training is the problem. I have no issue with police aiming for the center of mass. It seems like the right thing to do when using a gun. Guns aren't designed to incapacitate. They are designed to kill. Handguns are specifically designed to kill people. To me the bigger problem is that we aren't doing enough to design, manufacture, and distribute more nonlethal weapons.
 
Part of my "sad" response was the tone and rhetoric of "Can we stop this shoot to incapacitate nonsense?"

As if there's an inherent inevitability involved.
 
Part of my "sad" response was the tone and rhetoric of "Can we stop this shoot to incapacitate nonsense?"

As if there's an inherent inevitability involved.

When guns are involved, there is an unfortunate inevitability involved imo.
 
i mean, you said his description of the logic of firearm usage with reference specifically to training was sad. I thought that was a weird sentiment unless you still believe we should train people to shoot for legs.
 
I love that you pretend not to know what I'm talking about. Lots of expert opinions on the poor from a place with $60,000.00 tuition annually. Nice little fence you've built for yourselves.

This logic makes no sense. Besides the fact that many people have already graduated from the Wake bubble its pretty asinine to essentially say "o your from a wealthy upbringing and went to a school with a high rate of tuition so your sympathy or empathy for those less well off is hypocritical."

People who are poor tend to not have the capability for one reason or several to speak out for their own cause. Hence why people who are moved by that plight advocate for their cause. Look no further then your average public defender.

If your simply not going to listen to the opinions on the poor from those who have reached your thresholds of "well off" because in your opinion they don't "really understand" the people or the topic your disqualifying many people from trying to help those who most need it.

But do continue to obliquely construct rhetorical scarecrows.
 
Part of my "sad" response was the tone and rhetoric of "Can we stop this shoot to incapacitate nonsense?"

As if there's an inherent inevitability involved.

I think you may be missing the point. Shooting at a leg is a terrible stategy for incacipating someone. It's difficult to do, and doesn't guarantee success.

That's why non lethal options are a much better option if you are looking to incapacitate. But if you're going to use your firearm, by training, you are already past the point of incapacitating. That's why it's called a lethal weapon.
 
That's 9 shots. NINE. Two after the body already was on the ground.






That looks even like suicide by cop, but the police officers had no better option to consider in the time frame? Police car stops at 1:24 in the video until 1:40 in the video when the fist shot is fired -- in those 16 seconds, when a man was walking around, albeit with an aggressive stance, they couldn't have thought, "hey, maybe we should take our tasers out instead of these death causing pistols in our hands?"

And as the man was approaching, they couldn't just shoot him in the leg(s) and incapacitate him?


Just awful all around. The man was clearly troubled and looking for a confrontation and the two police officers that arrived on the scene gave him what he wanted, in my opinion -- suicide by cop.


HOLY SHIT!!!!!!! Wow. did they determine if that kid had anything on him? I couldn't tell in the video, did he reach for something? That's pretty much the most awful thing I've ever seen.... good lord.
 
This logic makes no sense. Besides the fact that many people have already graduated from the Wake bubble its pretty asinine to essentially say "o your from a wealthy upbringing and went to a school with a high rate of tuition so your sympathy or empathy for those less well off is hypocritical."

People who are poor tend to not have the capability for one reason or several to speak out for their own cause. Hence why people who are moved by that plight advocate for their cause. Look no further then your average public defender.

If your simply not going to listen to the opinions on the poor from those who have reached your thresholds of "well off" because in your opinion they don't "really understand" the people or the topic your disqualifying many people from trying to help those who most need it.

But do continue to obliquely construct rhetorical scarecrows.

There is something else he's forgetting. People who went to Wake in 60s, 70s and first couple of years in the 80s could have easily come from middle and even lower middle class as it was very, very inexpensive. My friend Joe found his second semester, junior year tuition receipt while cleaning his attic. It was for about $1000.
 
This logic makes no sense. Besides the fact that many people have already graduated from the Wake bubble its pretty asinine to essentially say "o your from a wealthy upbringing and went to a school with a high rate of tuition so your sympathy or empathy for those less well off is hypocritical."

People who are poor tend to not have the capability for one reason or several to speak out for their own cause. Hence why people who are moved by that plight advocate for their cause. Look no further then your average public defender.

If your simply not going to listen to the opinions on the poor from those who have reached your thresholds of "well off" because in your opinion they don't "really understand" the people or the topic your disqualifying many people from trying to help those who most need it.

But do continue to obliquely construct rhetorical scarecrows.

You are moved by their cause....just not enough to be around it very much and certainly not to send your children to the same schools as those poor kids. No, none of that for you all.

But you can speak expertly on their plight...

Of course you can.
 
You are moved by their cause....just not enough to be around it very much and certainly not to send your children to the same schools as those poor kids. No, none of that for you all.

But you can speak expertly on their plight...

Of course you can.

Can you?
 
My last year at Wake was 91 and the tuition was $11,700. Pricey, but definitely not out of the middle class price range. I think it was under $10K when I started.

I then got my master's at UNC. Tuition was a little over $1,000 a semister.
 
In today's game of "The problem isn't the police" Bingo:

The problem isn't police, it's the tattoo situation and general lack of bounce passes in the NBA.
The problem isn't police, it's greed.
The problem isn't police, it's withdrawing from a golf tournament early because your son is being born.
The problem isn't police, it's George W. Bush.
The problem isn't police, it's the NSA.
The problem isn't police, it's lack of two parent households.
The problem isn't police, it's fracking.
The problem isn't police, it's radio presents.
The problem isn't police, it's Boomers. Fucking boomers.
The problem isn't police, it's BenghaziBenghaziBenghaziBenghaziBenghaziBenghaziBenghaziBenghaziBenghaziBenghazi.
The problem isn't police, it's roving bands of black youths playing the knockout game.
The problem isn't police, it's Obamacare. Or death panels. Or both.
The problem isn't police, it's Drones.
The problem isn't police, it's Lois Lerner.
The problem isn't police, it's Barack HUSSEIN Obama taking my guns away.
The problem isn't police, it's stand your ground laws.
The problem isn't police, it's intergenerational, persistent entitlement.

Collect five in a row and win!
 
The problem isn't the police. The problem is crime. If it wasn't for crime, you wouldn't even need any damned police. The police aren't just going around looking for people to beat up or kill. They aren't looking to place their own lives in danger when they get up and go to work each day. And the great majority of the crimes in this country are being committed by repeat, habitual offenders who have no respect for the society in which they live. It's time to stop making alibis for them and rationalizing their behavior.

What percentage of court cases today involve repeat offenders? 80%? 90%? More than 90%?

There are problems from both sides. The huge majority of cops are good people doing a really tough job. But as is the case in any job of authority, there are exceptions to the rule. Some think they are above the law. Something they are better than the people they are supposed to protect.

Just as there are some bigoted managers and employees in other professions, there are bigoted cops and top police people. Driving While Black and in some places Walking While Black absolutely exists.

It's not as simple as you portray it.
 
The problem isn't the police. The problem is crime. If it wasn't for crime, you wouldn't even need any damned police. The police aren't just going around looking for people to beat up or kill. They aren't looking to place their own lives in danger when they get up and go to work each day. And the great majority of the crimes in this country are being committed by repeat, habitual offenders who have no respect for the society in which they live. It's time to stop making alibis for them and rationalizing their behavior.

What percentage of court cases today involve repeat offenders? 80%? 90%? More than 90%?

While I agree with that to an extent, you can't gloss over the disconnect between the badge and the community, especially the black community.

You and I were probably taught growing up that you had nothing to fear from the police unless you'd done something wrong. Unfortunately, that's not the experience of a significant section of our society. Disproportionate stopping, stop and frisk policies, etc. fuel distrust that compounds the historically racist policies of our nation.

I do not think cops are the bad guy, or even really the problem in and of themselves, but there are several key issues that need to be addressed:

1) Our cultural racial bias - this is the hardest to fix, but starts with efforts to build bridges between the cops and community and foster communication (and yes, I realized this is idealistic and has no short term fix and honestly, prospects look dim for long term solutions). While no one rationally thinks that Wilson is a closeted Klan member who was out to get black people, racial bias certainly comes into play when situations like this are escalated to the point of deadly force. We need to understand that the Civil Rights Amendment didn't end discrimination and disparity - the problem is in each of us. During the heightened focus on children being left in cars, I read an article basically saying, "if you can lose your keys, you're capable of forgetting your kid in a car." The same is true here. If you've ever felt uncomfortable around someone of a different race, or been a little on edge because your driving/walking through "that neighborhood" in your town, then in the quick decision, tense situation like the altercation between Brown and Wilson, you might make the same decision he did based on ingrained racial bias. This doesn't excuse it (in either case, here or leaving a baby in a car), but it shows the deep seated biases we have as a country.

2) Lack of accountability/oversight of the police. Weapons discharges should not be handled internally, similar to the WI law recently passed. Surveillance in the form of dashboard cams/POV recorders should be phased in to provide accountability and clarity when situations such as this happen.

The militarization of our police force just exacerbates these problems because greater force is at the ready to use in these situations.
 
^^ Nothing we haven't covered many times over, but very well said, IamThunderbolt.
 
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