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First Charges Filed in Mueller Investigation

Deacfreak07 said:
Trump represents their belief system, so any admission of foul play in his election would be ceding that their beliefs aren’t as popular as they thought. They can’t accept that. Trump’s election was as much about stopping the changing tides as it was about making libs upset. That’s one of the reasons they can’t ever criticize him. Change terrifies them, and Trump’s bigoted nostalgia fights against that.
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Wrong. As I have said many times before, I can believe all kinds of corrupt things about Trump. It would be hard to believe that a man who builds skyscrapers in NYC and casinos in Atlantic City is entirely legit all the time. Most likely he is not. The Russia collusion story makes no sense, and it's enthusiastic purveyors have produced no credible, much less convincing, evidence for it despite investigating for two years, with a good bit of that by a special counsel.
 
sailordeac said:
Wrong. As I have said many times before, I can believe all kinds of corrupt things about Trump. It would be hard to believe that a man who builds skyscrapers in NYC and casinos in Atlantic City is entirely legit all the time. Most likely he is not. The Russia collusion story makes no sense, and it's enthusiastic purveyors have produced no credible, much less convincing, evidence for it despite investigating for two years, with a good bit of that by a special counsel.
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Thanks for admitting that you've already made up your mind on the matter regardless of what evidence is presented. Like with your Deep State obsession, evidence is not the problem.
 
I just want to point out that the maximum FBI employee annual salary probably tops out at $350K. Also all government employees are required to annually submit financial disclosure reports for them selves and close family members. These guys could easily makes way more money outside government service, so if their motivation was self enrichment they were going about it entirely the wrong way by getting some coveted promotion with in the FBI. Secondly, if their primary motivation was self enrichment via promotion, why wouldn’t they drop the Russia investigation now and investigate Hillary. I get the feeling the president would be pretty happy about someone starting a big Hillary investigation and might even promote that person. Maybe even to the GS15 level!
 
Sailor made his most reasonable post of the year at 7:00 this morning.

I can emphasize with folks who want to see more credible evidence implicating Trump directly before joining the treason brigade. This is probably where middle America is at this point - skeptical that any credible evidence is out there that implicates Trump directly (we will know eventually - Mueller has what he has and he ain't leaking much), amused at the big 3 cable networks for their unending and unwavering attack/defense of his administration in relation to the probe (all 3 are batshit crazy), yet uneasy with his contradictory and changing statements and attacks on the FBI and DOJ - in my mind, not the sort of statements or stances a completely innocent man would take. (This is the piece that gives me the most heartburn).
 
I’m curious what evidence people want to see.
 
"Federal law makes it a crime for any person to "solicit, accept or receive" a contribution or "anything of value" from a foreign person for a U.S. political campaign or "for the purpose of influencing any election for federal office."

Don, Jr., minimally, knowingly and absolutely did "solicit" something "of value" from a "foreign person" "for the purpose of influencing any election for federal office".

We have the evidence from Don, Junior's own email. It's in black and white.

You can dance and parse and try to look above all of us, but the evidence is direct and incontrovertible.
 
Junebug said:
I can only speak for myself, but I would like to see evidence that Trump himself committed a high crime or misdemeanor before concluding he should be impeached. I don’t think Jr’s meeting with the Russian was illegal, even if Trump knew about it, and I don’t think the case for obstruction of justice is particularly strong or serious. If Mueller doesn’t uncover anything other than what we already know, I think the public will—correctly—view any impeachment as partisan politics, akin to Clinton’s impeachment.

My mind is open to the possibility that Mueller has something we don’t know about yet. I would not hesitate to support impeachment if the evidence were there.
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This is where Trump’s brazenness/recklessness helps him. Most people, even smart people with a legal education who should know better, seem to think that Meuller needs to find some secret communique to prove conspiracy or obstruction of justice. If his theory of the case is correct, then he can prove both just based on public statements from the parties involved.

It’s also a testament to Fox News’ grip on smart conservatives that it’s essentially going to take Mueller proving that Trump was a Manchurian candidate still actively working for the Russians to convince them impeachment isn’t a partisan issue, even then I’m not sure.
 
Junebug said:
I can only speak for myself, but I would like to see evidence that Trump himself committed a high crime or misdemeanor before concluding he should be impeached. I don’t think Jr’s meeting with the Russian was illegal, even if Trump knew about it, and I don’t think the case for obstruction of justice is particularly strong or serious. If Mueller doesn’t uncover anything other than what we already know, I think the public will—correctly—view any impeachment as partisan politics, akin to Clinton’s impeachment.

My mind is open to the possibility that Mueller has something we don’t know about yet. I would not hesitate to support impeachment if the evidence were there.
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Ok. But what evidence?
 
sailordeac said:
Wrong. As I have said many times before, I can believe all kinds of corrupt things about Trump. It would be hard to believe that a man who builds skyscrapers in NYC and casinos in Atlantic City is entirely legit all the time. Most likely he is not. The Russia collusion story makes no sense, and it's enthusiastic purveyors have produced no credible, much less convincing, evidence for it despite investigating for two years, with a good bit of that by a special counsel.
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End of Story for those with Common Sense
 
Junebug said:
I have explained my position for why alleged information about an opponent is not a “thing of value” under the statute several times in this thread. But even if it were, your argument pertains to Jr, not Trump. So far, there is no evidence that Trump knew about the meeting before it occurred.

And even if information is a “thing of value,” which it isn’t, there is still no evidence Trump knew about the meeting, and, of course, no information was actually exchanged. Plus, Jr didn’t solicit the information. He was solicited. He may, possibly, have conspired to receive the information (again, there is no evidence that he actually received any), but that would require evidence that everyone in the alleged conspiracy knew she was Russian, and, unless I am mistaken, we don’t have evidence of that.
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Is that a general statement or specific to how “thing of value” is used in that particular statute.
 
Junebug said:
I have explained my position for why alleged information about an opponent is not a “thing of value” under the statute several times in this thread. But even if it were, your argument pertains to Jr, not Trump. So far, there is no evidence that Trump knew about the meeting before it occurred.

And even if information is a “thing of value,” which it isn’t, there is still no evidence Trump knew about the meeting, and, of course, no information was actually exchanged. Plus, Jr didn’t solicit the information. He was solicited. He may, possibly, have conspired to receive the information (again, there is no evidence that he actually received any), but that would require evidence that everyone in the alleged conspiracy knew she was Russian, and, unless I am mistaken, we don’t have evidence of that.
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READING IS FUNDAMENTAL...my ENTIRE post is about Don, Jr. I never mention daddy.

You are COMPLETELY mistaken. The email said she was a Russian official. I believe the exact term was Crown Prosecutor. Please don't parse and there is no such position.

You are arguing just to argue.
 
Remember when Trump claimed he had nothing to do with Russia? No business deals, no relationships, no nothing. And his band of red-hat wearing MAGA cronies parroted the same thing?

Man...you guys have moved the goalposts out of the stadium and down the road at this point.
 
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Newenglanddeac said:
Remember when Trump claimed he had nothing to do with Russia? No business deals, no relationships, no nothing. And his band of red-hat wearing MAGA cronies parroted the same thing?

Man...you guys have moved the goalposts out of the stadium and down the road at this point.
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At this point, the changing statements and lies are the best indication that he isn't clean in all of this. He isn't saying things that an innocent man would say. But eventually we will get a report from Mueller's office. I don't see how either camp can declare with any certainty if he's guilty of a crime or not until we see that report and supporting evidence.

I would also consider any attempt to fire the SC an admission of guilt and then I'm all aboard the impeach train.
 
Junebug said:
For the record, I haven’t watched (or read) Fox News in years. My primary news source is CNN.

And I don’t think it is necessary for Mueller to prove that Trump is a Manchurian Candidate in order for me to support impeachment, but what I have seen isn’t enough.
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Junebug said:
I’m not going to speculate. I’ll wait for the final report to judge.
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It’s not speculation to say what type of evidence you’d need to see and for what.

Right now, it looks like there’s nothing that would convince you and you’re trying to seem objective.

It’s to the point where you and others seem to think it’s no big deal for multiple people in a campaign to coordinate with a foreign government.
 
We know Cohen was still negotiating for Trump Moscow during the campaign.

We know for a fact that Putin's personal bank, VEB, was involved in Trump Toronto.

We know for a fact that a group of Russian hoods laundered over $220,000,000 from their homes and office in Trump Tower, NY. Those involved were represented by the lawyer who was at Don, Jr's meeting. We know for a fact that these people got an insane offer from AG Sessions directed DOJ. No one went to jail. No one paid back taxes. There was only a $5.9M fine paid.
 
Junebug said:
Right; what evidence is there that anyone other than Jr saw the email or otherwise knew it was from a Russian official? Genuinely curious here; I don’t recall any.
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