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HP's UNC-Cheat Thread - UNC comes out on top, NCAA penalized by UNC

Deacfreak07 said:
How would removing a banner harm current student athletes that had nothing to do with this, jhmd? You are obviously arguing for no punishment from the NCAA, but given your self righteous rant about the innocence of current student athletes, removing banners seems like the correct punishment to you.
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"Punishment" is a poor solution when reform is on the table. Besides, I don't believe memory purging is real.

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Deacfreak07 said:
Who said punishment was about a solution here?
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Asked and answered.

jhmd2000 said:
***

The correct answer is to fix the actual problem. If past UNC athletes were "denied" (spoiler alert: prolly not "denied"), they should be offered the opportunity to complete more rigorous coursework. But if you see this problem as a strictly a sinister plot to keep athletes eligible, you may not fully appreciate how what happened to came to pass. For more on that, read this. There are parts of the Wainstein Report that don't support that narrative. You should read those.

eta: The answer really does depend on how you define the problem. If you define the problem as an evil scheme by your hated rival to deny your teams athletic glory (query: is narcissism "unethical conduct"?), then yes, by all means, strip the banners down, spray paint them in old gold and black and hang them in the Joel. Those games never happened.

But if you define the problem as a wildly unsupervised Department that knew it had free reign on a campus with Administrators petrified to question their legitimacy, it's not terribly difficult to see how you got fraudulent classes in an academically wobbly department grounded in politically fashionable identity studies. Did the athletic people know that department was a joke? Yep. It went on for 18 years. The better question is, who didn't? My guess is that group was smaller than the people who did know but were afraid to say something. UNC's biggest issue should be answering to the Accrediting authorities on how they elevated a niche subspeciality in humanities to a degree-granting full department and never seemed to burn many calories to see if the package was worth the freight. I'm guessing they'd like a do-over on that benign neglect now.

But viewing the problem as how it impacted the student-athletes won't solve the way you view the problem, which is that your team lost. I can't help you with that.
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jhmd2000 said:
Clearly the appropriate answer is to re-punish the current football team for something that they still didn't do.
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The punishment would be for the University of North Carolina which committed 18 years of academic fraud. The football teams, basketball teams, baseball, etc. all represent the university. All of the current athletes committed to play for a school which was under scrutiny for academic improprieties involving the athletic programs. It is unfortunate for them, but they took a risk when they signed to play for UNC. To deny the entire school punishment they deserve for 18 years of fraudulent behavior just because the current athletes didn't do it is not just. This is not about the current athletes but about the culture of cheating and fraud that UNC created to benefit themselves and put themselves ahead of other schools for 18 years.
 
And thus you highlight the biggest victims here IMO, African American Studies as a discipline and the serious students who pursued it as a major. At the end of all this, the general consensus becomes, or perhaps always was, AA Studies was a sham major rather than a corrupt department. I feel really badly for the students who pursued this major in earnest and are now dragged through the mud of corruption caused by the perversion that is out misguided attachment to college athletics over college.

So in your opinion, it sounds like you advocate no punishment by the NCAA or accrediting board, but a solution based departure from liberal arts.
 
Judge, I'm sorry I robbed that bank. Im here to fix the problem. Two million people in American prisons are willing to fix the problem. Seems punishment was the solution society imposed. How about UNC takes the punishment everyone outside Chapel Hill knows they deserve AND fix the problems. You still have a basketball coach that says he had no clue cheating was going on right under his nose. UNC has not even admitted there is a problem on several issues.
 
I really didn't think it was possible to disagree with JHMD more than I did prior to yesterday but somehow, here we are. Get the popcorn ready for some #movinggoalposts and #undefeated moves from the JHMDster from here on out - vintage moves. This is the little preview we get for the Obama impeachment so we should all enjoy.
 
In other news, the kid who PJ punched dropped the charges yesterday. Just happened to be the same day that Lebo signed him to a basketball scholarship at ECU. I'm completely 100% certain that those two events are totally unrelated.
 
When are they going to stop calling out Mary Willingham as we see here again. It's just stupid. Was she really an athlete hatin' renegade? Or is what she said closer to the truth? And just because McCants is bat shit crazy in general, does not preclude him from admitting he did not do shit to make Deans List as the records also show.
 
easy solution - death penalty to UNC and allow all current student athletes to freely transfer. And if you still feel bad for them, give the an extra year of eligibility back for all the pain and suffering UNCheat caused them.

Seems fair to me - the guilty get punished and the poor, little "student-athletes" get a chance to start all over in a place that actually gives a damn about them as people, rather than pawns in the college sports machine.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Clearly the appropriate answer is to re-punish the current football team for something that they still didn't do. Double jeopardy is prohibited by any notion of fairness for guilty people, but I haven't seen any jurisprudential prohibition on a second punishment against the innocent (e.g. the 2014 teams, and thereafter). Those kids clearly didn't learn anything from the last bowl ban they got for what happened when they were in middle school. Clearly another date with the cat o' nine tails is in order. I'm as tired as the rest of you of scholarship athletes who didn't do anything wrong going un re-punished.

The correct answer is to fix the actual problem. If past UNC athletes were "denied" (spoiler alert: prolly not "denied"), they should be offered the opportunity to complete more rigorous coursework. But if you see this problem as a strictly a sinister plot to keep athletes eligible, you may not fully appreciate how what happened to came to pass. For more on that, read this. There are parts of the Wainstein Report that don't support that narrative. You should read those.

eta: The answer really does depend on how you define the problem. If you define the problem as an evil scheme by your hated rival to deny your teams athletic glory (query: is narcissism "unethical conduct"?), then yes, by all means, strip the banners down, spray paint them in old gold and black and hang them in the Joel. Those games never happened.

But if you define the problem as a wildly unsupervised Department that knew it had free reign on a campus with Administrators petrified to question their legitimacy, it's not terribly difficult to see how you got fraudulent classes in an academically wobbly department grounded in politically fashionable identity studies. Did the athletic people know that department was a joke? Yep. It went on for 18 years. The better question is, who didn't? My guess is that group was smaller than the people who did know but were afraid to say something. UNC's biggest issue should be answering to the Accrediting authorities on how they elevated a niche subspeciality in humanities to a degree-granting full department and never seemed to burn many calories to see if the package was worth the freight. I'm guessing they'd like a do-over on that benign neglect now.

But viewing the problem as how it impacted the student-athletes won't solve the way you view the problem, which is that your team lost. I can't help you with that.
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This shit's been going on since 2010. I have 0 sympathy for anyone who was dumb enough to take a scholarship to a school that was under NCAA scrutiny and with weekly N&O editorials about the dumpster fire going on over there.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I really didn't think it was possible to disagree with JHMD more than I did prior to yesterday but somehow, here we are. Get the popcorn ready for some #movinggoalposts and #undefeated moves from the JHMDster from here on out - vintage moves. This is the little preview we get for the Obama impeachment so we should all enjoy.
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I'm sure jhmd will still be focused on solutions over punishment then. Just like always. Pillar of consistency, that guy.
 
None of this would have happened if UNC had had a two-parent household. They never learned about personal responsibility.
 
jhmd2000 said:
The correct answer is to fix the actual problem. If past UNC athletes were "denied" (spoiler alert: prolly not "denied"), they should be offered the opportunity to complete more rigorous coursework.
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Yes, let's definitely lay the blame at the feet of the past athletes who did what was told them by representatives of the athletic dept. Sounds about right. Never mind the adults and structure that allowed this to go on for 18 years..
 
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