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I’ll bet my right to post on this message board that Wake makes the NCAAT in 2019.

I will throw down 500 or more cold cash that we do NOT make the tournament as an 8 seed or better next season if anyone actually wants to bet.
 
Why the Deac Not said:
Wake has sucked for almost a decade straight so it's pretty much already embarrassing being a Wake Forest fan. Bitching about how we suck is all we have anymore. I'm almost ready to take you up on your dumb bet because I'm almost to the point where I no longer care one way or the other about Wake BB, let alone Wake sports in general. It was nice seeing Clawson turning things around and delivering on his short-term goals, but I was hardly living and dying with every snap or TD.

But DV7's idea is so much better. It's not like I get some enriching feeling of increased self-worth from debating what degree of bad Danny Manning is at basketball coaching. It CAN be a bit cathartic I suppose when I allow myself to look back fondly on the halcyon days of Wake BB, when Childress was breaking ankles and draining 3's and Timmy D was blocking anything that came within 5 feet of him, or embarrassing Serge Zwikker with yet another nasty baseline spin move-dunk.

Part of me feels like we're only fooling ourselves hoping against hope (tilting at windmills really) that we will ever return to the level we saw under Dave Odom. Forget Skip Prosser -- God bless him -- as we had a few good years, but it was the Chris Paul show, and we had most of our eggs in his overflowing basket. When we lost to West freakin' Virginia and then CP left for the NBA, the heartbreak was so acute that I really don't remember anything from the "lost" '05-'06 season. I honestly don't think I could bring myself to watch the games, or I was too busy with work, or I simply realized early on in January that it wasn't going to be the same and stopped paying close attention, maybe so the sting of sucking would be thwarted.

I had high hopes for Danny, although I knew this hire was far from ideal in the wake of the USS Bzzaster. I tried to remain optimistic and at times I felt renewed, especially when Crawford was lifting us to upset wins in Maui and then John Collins exploding onto the scene, that rare phenomenon of overlooked talent and potential, proving his worth with every bucket and wowing scouts with his silly athleticism. But even towards the middle of the ACC slate, I could tell there were issues and the loss at home to Duke forced me to take a step back. I knew there would be wins to enjoy, but I stopped expecting us to really reach our potential because we were a) still flawed or inadequate at certain positions and b) couldn't play the type of defense that Danny wants to "hang his hat on."

Now I fear that the attrition will be worse than everyone expects and we'll be left with an assortment of moderately to very talented players who will drown in the ACC due to inexperience and the continued manifestation of many of the coaching deficiencies that have been well documented on this board. I mean can you imagine if we lose Woods AND Craw?? And perhaps even Doral if some NBA GM is willing to take a flyer on him in the late 1st or early 2nd?? Cuz you just can't teach size and Moore can learn on the job now that he is in better shape and starting to scratch the ceiling of his potential? I hate to even think about that possibility. Because if it were to happen, it could mean an even greater indictment of Manning as it might speak to his folly of having to over-promise to his better recruits (when it comes to the recruiting sales pitch) the chance to showcase their talents for the professional ranks rather than focusing his efforts on assembling a cohesive team unit whose play and results are greater than the sum of its parts.

I know I'm rambling and I'm sure I'm just a bit paranoid about what will happen over the next couple of months to the state of our program, but being a Wake forest fan does seem a bit like "battered wife" syndrome as you begin to start expecting the worst at every turn. It's not LOWF because it is generally the norm. Not only is sustained success elusive, but it's an even greater challenge seemingly to extract results commensurate with our potential when we are "good." Just look at the soccer team. We've been arguably the best team in the country for two years, but have only a Final Four appearance to show for it. We had Tim Duncan for a fourth year surrounded by deadeye shooters and we lost in the 2nd round to Stanford. Even when it's good, it always tastes more bittersweet than it should.
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Not going to hate on a good cathartic rant. But I’ll quibble with 2 things:

1. We did not suck last year. Given the six years preceding it I’ve never fully understood why so few of you enjoyed last season. It was nothing to get ecstatic about, or hopeful for a serious run, but that was a fun team.

2. Calling Prosser’s time the “Chris Paul” train seems kind of weird since most of Odom’s success came on the shoulders of Duncan. In fact pretty much all our success during the past 30 years has come on the back of one or more NBA first round picks. That’s part of the reason I harp so much on talent.
 
RChildress107 said:
Stop making asinine arguments and complaints about why Manning sucks when there are plenty of non-asinine arguments to support your point. For starters.

If I didn’t have to read a steady drivel of “OMG will we ever be good again”, “8 years of misery”, “passion on the sidelines,” “in-game coaching”, “defensive fundamentals”, “[insert small sample size of games] is all that matters”, no actually [insert even smaller sample size of games] is all that matters”, “what about what [insert hall of fame coach] did at [non analogous program or situation], “without John Collins . . .”, “Manning didn’t develop John Collins”, or whatever other subjective empty phrase is the argument du jour, I wouldn’t post nearly as much as I do.
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What in the hell is wrong with you? I made no arguments other than I'm in favor of whatever door prize will shut you up.
 
Last year WAS fun!! I enjoyed the hell out of watching John Collins and the rest of the squad exhibit prolonged stretches of offensive brilliance and scoring efficiency, the likes of which we hadn't seen since 2009 (2/3 of the season) and of course the CP3 teams. But there were some early season reminders -- road losses vs NW & X, as well as the epic defensive fail vs Nova -- that indicated we might struggle even more against the better teams in the ACC. And then that home Duke loss was a sobering punch in the gut signaling to all of us that there was still something irrevocably missing...hmmm what is it? Oh yes, defense!!

Which is the one thing that you could usually count on at the very least when Davey O. was patrolling (or squatting on) the sidelines. And he had a good 7 year stretch of success....a solid first year with another coach's recruits, a frustrating albeit mildly productive second year despite Childress sidelined with a knee injury, and then 5 incredible (incredible considering 5-7 year runs of any degree of success at Wake are rare) years of consistent results...results that spanned at least two major class recruiting cycles. While I agreed with changing course in 2001, I still give Odom some of the credit for having recruited the players who nearly made it to the 2nd weekend of the NCAAT in 2002 under Skip's tutelage.

Even had Duncan not become one of the best college centers of all-time, we still would have been very competitive with the players we had and due to the commitment to the schemes employed by Odom, especially on the defensive end. Maybe next year the new normal will manifest itself like you say -- and resemble the continuation of what we saw last year -- but based on what I've seen through 4 years, my own personal analysis of our games tells me we are more likely to find the type of "mediocrity" we've seen in years two and four, with glimpses of seeming potential to compete, but consistently coming up short in close games, and ultimately finishing in the bottom third of the ACC.

Perhaps Hoard will prove to be Manning's panacea player similar to Rodney Rogers or Mucius is the next severely underrated player about to shock coaches and pro scouts like John Collins, but I still see major deficiencies -- even with Crawford returning -- in the back court and fear we might be relying too much on the expected big frosh to soph jump by Sarr and (to a lesser extent) Brown in terms of their per minute production and impact. With Key surely gone, we'll still be a bit undersized (Chill) and thin (how much can we count on Wright?) in the back court and perhaps one injury away (Craw ankle sprain) from reaching the level of success you are betting on.

Even completely healthy, I'm not sure it's a wise bet to count on so many freshmen and sophomores, one big center who can get into foul trouble, and an enigmatic Crawford, who may not actually be in school next year. Just think 9-3 \ 7-11 & 1-1 (17-15) might be our ceiling next year. And Hoard and Brown could both have very good years (see the stats of the aforementioned '91-'92 team that went 17-12) statistically, but how much more will it tell us about Manning? Won't we still be pointing to 2019's recruiting class since Danny was "unlucky" in his initial turnaround that saw Collins bolt for the NBA? Or should he have done more to ensure we were ready to compete for a tourney berth in Year 4 regardless of premature success in Year 3? Seems like we're letting the clock start over again to some extent.

Again, it's hard to compare eras and set criteria that a new coach should have to meet by Year 4, but I think a lot of folks around here feel as though winning 65-70% of our games and challenging for 4th-6th in the ACC with a Tourney berth is a fairly (reasonable) measure to meet. I'm just kind of shocked that you would feel so confident of our prospects to win nearly 80% of our games, thus getting to 23-24 wins, and securing a Top 8 seed. I can't even get there in my wildest dreams anymore.
 
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