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Jerusalem Embassy Opening Going Well

RJKarl said:
But Trump and Republicans think having a wall would cause Mexicans and others from Central America to throw up their hands and quit trying to enter America. After all, there are no flights (which cost less than border coyotes) to the US from south of the Rio Grande.
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Gee, I wonder why no one has just tried flying to the US. It’s so simple and foolproof and they certainly wouldn’t be caught by the immigration officers that are at every airport.
 
Tons of Mexicans fly legally to the US every month. They get through immigration.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I take it Fox News and the right wing media are contextualizing all these protests as a Hamas insurgency based upon the tweets and posts from our dear conservative friends.
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Actually it's clearly explained in that right wing mouthpiece better known as the New York Times:

After midday prayers, the atmosphere grew even more charged when officials from Hamas and other militant factions addressed the worshipers, urging them into the fray and claiming — falsely, to all appearances — that the fence had been breached and that Palestinians were flooding into Israel.

Hamas officials vowed that the protests would continue, but also hinted at the possibility of a military strike at Israel by the group’s military wing, the Qassam brigades, a response that could bring about another Gaza war.

Israel said no Palestinians had crossed the fence, but said it had repulsed several unsuccessful attempts by Hamas to have armed fighters slip across into Israel and wreak havoc — which Israel has maintained all along has been the true military objective of Hamas.

At least three separate squads of armed fighters “tried to use the commotion and smoke and dynamics of the riots as concealment, and then launched an attack on the fence,” said Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, a spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces.

One Israeli soldier was wounded by shrapnel from what was believed to be an explosive device, he said, and a variety of explosives were hurled at the Israelis by Palestinians. There had been “numerous shots” fired at Israeli soldiers, the army said.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-jerusalem-embassy.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Guess we can file this one away as just another "peaceful and spontaneous" protest similar to the attack in Benghazi.
 
RJKarl said:
It's also easy not to consider the difference in eras. What worked for Hadrian or others in the distant past won't work today.
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There goes the plan to build a causeway over a natural land bridge.
 
That seems a fairly balanced piece, read in whole.

Kushner embodying total lack of self awareness:

Mr. Kushner said that “those provoking violence are part of the problem and not part of the solution.”
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As explained in conclusion:

One clear loser [of the US embassy move], veterans of Israeli-Palestinian talks said, was peace in the region, which seemed ever more distant.

“Israel claims all of Jerusalem, and is doing their best to ensure it remains that way,” said Aaron David Miller, a former Middle East negotiator in Republican and Democratic administrations. “And the Trump administration is validating that in a way no other administration has.”

The American Embassy, he said, is the new symbol of that partnership.

Hamas and other jihadist groups have “a national and religious issue around which to rally: defense of Jerusalem,” Mr. Miller said. “The embassy is now the physical manifestation of that campaign.”
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ImTheCaptain said:
people in this thread seem really fucking confused about what a physical wall does and does not do
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Soviets built one in Berlin to keep people in. Can't think of another wall built to keep people in, except the DMZ if it would qualify. Seems pretty rare but very effective.
 
Biggus Deacus said:
Soviets built one in Berlin to keep people in. Can't think of another wall built to keep people in, except the DMZ if it would qualify. Seems pretty rare but very effective.
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header.jpg
 
ImTheCaptain said:
not to belabor the point but it's easy when you compress time to say things don't work over time but in that case we're talking a wall that worked for like 350 years.
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Hadrian's Wall was actually abandoned under the Emperor Antoninus in 142 CE, when he built his own wall further north. Due to raids on the Antonine Wall, later emperors pulled back to Hadrian's Wall. Just how effective the wall was is actually still debated by historians. It did prevent large-scale invasions by Celtic tribes, but not small-scale raids and attacks. It actually became a very effective trading post between between the local tribes and the Romans, so in that sense it was effective. At any rate, we're talking about a single wall. As for people being confused about a physical wall, I'd say it's the people who support a wall along the Mexican border who are confused about what it can and cannot do regarding immigration.
 
Biggus Deacus said:
Soviets built one in Berlin to keep people in. Can't think of another wall built to keep people in, except the DMZ if it would qualify. Seems pretty rare but very effective.
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Except that it came to symbolize the failure of the Communist economic system, and was thus a great propaganda tool for the Soviet Union's opponents. JFK's speech in West Berlin is a good example of that. Physically it worked, but in the context of the Cold War competition, not so well.
 
Highland Deac said:
Hadrian's Wall was actually abandoned under the Emperor Antoninus in 142 CE, when he built his own wall further north. Due to raids on the Antonine Wall, later emperors pulled back to Hadrian's Wall. Just how effective the wall was is actually still debated by historians. It did prevent large-scale invasions by Celtic tribes, but not small-scale raids and attacks. It actually became a very effective trading post between between the local tribes and the Romans, so in that sense it was effective. At any rate, we're talking about a single wall. As for people being confused about a physical wall, I'd say it's the people who support a wall along the Mexican border who are confused about what it can and cannot do regarding immigration.
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abandoned and then re-manned

you best read a whole wiki entry before you try to use it
 
this argument is so dumb because people are confusing, either intentionally or unintentionally, the practical effectiveness of a wall with the symbolic and using it to argue against the other.k. The Berlin Wall actually worked pretty well.

But what i think you're really talking about is the idea of the Iron Curtain and its ability to insulate culture, which also worked for about a generation and has significant lasting cultural tendrils.

And if you guys are curious about the effects of physical barriers on the southern, you should listen to the recent RadioLab series about the border and forcing migrants through the desert. I think i saw CNN also has some longform piece out related to it as well right now.
 
RJKarl said:
Which was a nation thousands of years before the US or any western nation existed. That doesn't mean most Jews agree with Bibi's crazy settlements or having two states.
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RJ ready to hand back the United States to First Nation tribes. You heard it here first.
 
ImTheCaptain said:
this argument is so dumb because people are confusing, either intentionally or unintentionally, the practical effectiveness of a wall with the symbolic and using it to argue against the other.k. The Berlin Wall actually worked pretty well.

But what i think you're really talking about is the idea of the Iron Curtain and its ability to insulate culture, which also worked for about a generation and has significant lasting cultural tendrils.

And if you guys are curious about the effects of physical barriers on the southern, you should listen to the recent RadioLab series about the border and forcing migrants through the desert. I think i saw CNN also has some longform piece out related to it as well right now.
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I don't disagree with anything you've written. My point is simply that physical walls ultimately have unintended consequences. The Great Wall failed because the Chinese put massive resources into building it, then the Mongols and others simply rode around it. Hadrian's Wall may have been effective in preventing large-scale invasions by the Celts, but it also diverted military and financial resources that may well have left southern Britain open to eventual invasion. The Maginot Line gave the French a false sense of security, and proved to be ineffective in stopping the Germans in WW2. Castles and fortresses, even those thought to be impregnable, have nonetheless been taken by enemy forces throughout history. No doubt our current border wall has blocked many people from crossing, yet others continue to find ways to get through, despite the human cost. No doubt a massive physical wall running along the entire border might stop some more people from crossing, but human ingenuity has a way of getting around such things, not to mention the financial and human cost of building, guarding, and maintaining it. I also have a real issue with the idea of a nation built by immigrants cutting off immigration. Of course it happens, but historically our immigrants have been a source of prosperity, diversity, and strength, not a hindrance.
 
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DistrictDeacon said:
Gee, I wonder why no one has just tried flying to the US. It’s so simple and foolproof and they certainly wouldn’t be caught by the immigration officers that are at every airport.
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Yeah, the majority of illegal immigration to the US is through airports and overstaying your legal visa.
 
ImTheCaptain said:
this argument is so dumb because people are confusing, either intentionally or unintentionally, the practical effectiveness of a wall with the symbolic and using it to argue against the other.k. The Berlin Wall actually worked pretty well.

But what i think you're really talking about is the idea of the Iron Curtain and its ability to insulate culture, which also worked for about a generation and has significant lasting cultural tendrils.

And if you guys are curious about the effects of physical barriers on the southern, you should listen to the recent RadioLab series about the border and forcing migrants through the desert. I think i saw CNN also has some longform piece out related to it as well right now.
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This was a really good series of shows, it starts here: https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/border-trilogy-part-1

There was also a This American Life Episode recently about Walls: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/641/the-walls
 
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