• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Law School is a sham

WFfb115 said:
I don't think Campbell has a bar outline, or if they do they certainly didn't distribute it to my class. They just require their students to take more classes in subjects that are tested on the bar exam. They also have an additional essay writing prep class during the summer that involves taking a bunch of practice essays and is very helpful, but I think 2011 was the first year that was offered. One firm I interviewed with in Greensboro told me that Elon has a for-credit bar prep class that it 's students are required to take.
Click to expand...

They definitely had one in 2011. A friend of mine that went to Campbell sent it to me and told me that it was distributed.
 
BacktoBack said:
Trying to understand what the downside is to "teach to the bar". Why would a school not want to teach in a way that it's professionals could practice law in their chosen state upon graduation? It comes across as sour grapes and a way to explain away a lower pass rate. What am I missing? No pass, no work. Seems logical that passing would be important.
Click to expand...

I think its the whole "teach to the test" vs. "teach to think and analyze like a lawyer" debate. I don't really have an issue with teaching to the test, except that would have screwed me if they just went with the most popular state as NY was the most popular bar (around 66 of the 200).
 
I graduated Campbell Law 5-10 years ago, and we didn't get a bar outline. They just made subjects testable on the bar exam required classes (UCC, Wills, Income Tax).
 
BacktoBack said:
Trying to understand what the downside is to "teach to the bar". Why would a school not want to teach in a way that it's professionals could practice law in their chosen state upon graduation? It comes across as sour grapes and a way to explain away a lower pass rate. What am I missing? No pass, no work. Seems logical that passing would be important.
Click to expand...

Because the more national schools don't know what states their students will be practicing in. I think I was one of 12 kids in my class at Duke who took the NC bar, and like someone else mentioned, several of them just did so because they were at the complete ass-end of the class and had no job (usually because of massive social awkwardness) so took NC because they were already living here. And Duke was pushing kids as hard as possible to NY, LA, DC, and Chicago to pump up the average starting salaries and firm name recognition for their rankings, so the last thing they wanted was more people to stay in NC.
 
WFfb115 said:
I don't think Campbell has a bar outline, or if they do they certainly didn't distribute it to my class. They just require their students to take more classes in subjects that are tested on the bar exam. They also have an additional essay writing prep class during the summer that involves taking a bunch of practice essays and is very helpful, but I think 2011 was the first year that was offered. One firm I interviewed with in Greensboro told me that Elon has a for-credit bar prep class that it 's students are required to take.
Click to expand...

They didn't give it to us in 2014 either...

We got a distinctions spreadsheet thing that was about 2 pages long, but that is it.
 
Fishbelt Deac said:
I graduated Campbell Law 5-10 years ago, and we didn't get a bar outline. They just made subjects testable on the bar exam required classes (UCC, Wills, Income Tax).
Click to expand...

Interesting, maybe I misinterpreted the "distributed" comment and it was just passed around that class or something.
 
richis711 said:
They didn't give it to us in 2014 either...

We got a distinctions spreadsheet thing that was about 2 pages long, but that is it.
Click to expand...

Yeah I also got this, so maybe I am conflating the two and it wasn't something the school did that I got, but the distinctions thing was.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Because the more national schools don't know what states their students will be practicing in. I think I was one of 12 kids in my class at Duke who took the NC bar, and like someone else mentioned, several of them just did so because they were at the complete ass-end of the class and had no job (usually because of massive social awkwardness) so took NC because they were already living here. And Duke was pushing kids as hard as possible to NY, LA, DC, and Chicago to pump up the average starting salaries and firm name recognition for their rankings, so the last thing they wanted was more people to stay in NC.
Click to expand...

They have, at least, backed off on that sentiment in recent years.

Texas was another place a ton of students went. I think I would actually have a bigger Duke law network if I had gone to Texas instead of staying in NC.
 
Last edited:
BacktoBack said:
Trying to understand what the downside is to "teach to the bar". Why would a school not want to teach in a way that it's professionals could practice law in their chosen state upon graduation? It comes across as sour grapes and a way to explain away a lower pass rate. What am I missing? No pass, no work. Seems logical that passing would be important.
Click to expand...

At a school like Campbell, where most students are from NC and stay in NC, it makes sense. At a school like Wake, I would assume a much smaller percentage of the students give a shit about being prepped for the NC bar exam.

Edit: Or, what 2&2 said already...
 
Last edited:
bojanglefunk said:
I have, at least, backed off on that sentiment in recent years.

Texas was another place a ton of students went. I think I would actually have a bigger Duke law network if I had gone to Texas instead of staying in NC.
Click to expand...

I can say anecdotally that there's a pretty big Duke Law cabal here in Houston. It's definitely a little surprising.
 
Good points made by you guys, thanks!

I would assume that teaching one to think like a lawyer would be a helpful skill for passing the bar, but we can all agree standardized tests don't always test what they purport to test. Also, it would appear I am naive to the differences in law between different states. I mean obviously there are differences, but I assumed not enough that it would make the way law school is taught that variable.
 
bojanglefunk said:
I have, at least, backed off on that sentiment in recent years.
Click to expand...

If they did, it was because the market forced them to. When I was there and the market was rolling, anybody who wanted to stay in NC was pretty much viewed as a leper by the career office. I basically had to do my own recruiting, as every meeting with them had some component of "well why don't you start looking at NY firms".
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
If they did, it was because the market forced them to. When I was there and the market was rolling, anybody who wanted to stay in NC was pretty much viewed as a leper by the career office. I basically had to do my own recruiting, as every meeting with them had some component of "well why don't you start looking at NY firms".
Click to expand...

Oh it was 100% the market. I also think they were thrilled I wanted to stay here because I had a resume that was great for staying in NC because of how NC centric it was and had some connections in NC. In 2009 (my recruiting cycle year) they were just happy if anyone got a job anywhere. For all I know, it could be back to "look at NY." That said, I know a couple of the folks in the career office, and I don't THINK it has gotten back there, if for no other reason than the fact that they have realized having ties to NC helps when the market has a downturn.
 
Knight said:
Holy hell, those numbers for MSD are atrocious. Actually, no single school dominated as in past years. Me thinks that a few curve balls were thrown in 2014.
Click to expand...

I am not going to definitively say that this was the reason that people did not pass, because it did not affect me whatsoever, but many people had problems with ExamSoft and submitting your essay answers (as I am sure many heard about). The guy across from me said he was up until 5AM the first night trying to submit his answers and looked like an absolute wreck on the second day.

As for curve balls, I only know a few people that did not pass and I can honestly say that it was because they did not put the time in to studying. Everyone I talked to agreed that the test was very straightforward.

Also, I talked to a professor who said that there was a direct correlation between class rank to passing in most cases.
 
How much of the bar prep do you actually use as a lawyer? Does it depend on what law you practice and how?
 
wfudkn said:
This.
Click to expand...

Absolutely this. The bar exam is just a huge information dump. You cram all of this substantive law (almost all of which never comes into play during your day-to-day unless you're a general practitioner in a very small practice) into your head and then pour it out for the test and forget about most of it completely after a few years. Even now, sixteen years in, I rarely trust my memory for a substantive question - I go look it up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top