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Let's drug-test the rich before approving tax deductions, US congresswoman says

Actually, the impact of a $100 handout is $100, whereas the impact of a $100 deduction is more likely to be about $15, but I guess it could be as high as around $33.

The MID is a boom to the real estate industry and was certainly a factor in my decision to buy. If it encourages excessive borrowing and sprawly development patterns, then it would follow that it does encourage home ownership. If we are on par with other English-speaking nations, do they have any incentives for home ownership that aren't tax deductions? I don't care if it's unfair to renters. They are renting and don't bear the burdens of maintenance that their landlords do. And in spite of RJ's claims to the contrary, the hit they take on property taxes isn't nearly as substantial either.


No, it doesn't follow at all. It encourages ownership of homes that are bigger and located on more land than their owners could otherwise afford. The rate of homeownership is not impacted. Canada had a MID and phased it out over a period of years with no impact on homeownership rates at all. I don't know what other ownership incentives there would be. Nothing I've read indicates there are any.
 
No, it doesn't follow at all. It encourages ownership of homes that are bigger and located on more land than their owners could otherwise afford. The rate of homeownership is not impacted. Canada had a MID and phased it out over a period of years with no impact on homeownership rates at all. I don't know what other ownership incentives there would be. Nothing I've read indicates there are any.

I see what you're saying. So what % of homes foreclose during normal economic times?
 
No, it doesn't follow at all. It encourages ownership of homes that are bigger and located on more land than their owners could otherwise afford. The rate of homeownership is not impacted. Canada had a MID and phased it out over a period of years with no impact on homeownership rates at all. I don't know what other ownership incentives there would be. Nothing I've read indicates there are any.

I don't know if the wankers have gone through with it, but Cameron's Tories pledged in 2015 to force local govs sell off public housing stock to tenants at a discount relative to the valuation of the properties. So that's one way to subsidize homeownership without a MID.
 
The mortgage tax deduction makes little tax sense, but it's also the only tax break regular folk get. So if it goes, so should a bunch of other stuff so the overall rates can come down.
 
Whether your counterfactual is cash assistance or no assistance, SNAP clearly encourages eating, specifically of self-prepared food. That is promoting a behavior. There's no two ways about it.

Fine, if you say so. It isn't important.

Bottom line is if I take a deduction, it is taken because I am allowed it and because the government has determined that they should not be taxing that income. So the pennies I get on each dollar that I am allowed to deduct were my pennies in the first place. If somebody thinks I should be drug tested in order to be eligible to claim something that is already mine, that is not a reasonable line of thought and is a nonstarter in terms of a rational argument. Furthermore, if somebody thinks I should be drug tested simply because I make a shit-ton of money, they're just as much a bigot as those they claim to abhor. If I am taking welfare (and I will freely admit to thinking basically of food stamps/housing here, and not all the other stuff, but same logic applies), the government is taking taxpayer money that you and I have paid and giving it to the recipient. If somebody thinks drug testing should be a prerequisite for that money, it is a reasonable line of thought but can be argued appropriately. After all, we generally require kids to behave well if they want their Christmas gifts, but the consequences of them getting no gifts at all might be a shitstorm of epic proportions and not worth the trouble.

My money being handed back to me vs My money being handed out out to others by a 3rd party, basically. Yeah, maybe I'd want some say in how my money is spent. Same thing goes if you don't like spending on stealth bombers or whatever, but good luck drug testing Northrup Grumman.

Now if you want to rail about corporate welfare and tax breaks for companies, more power to you, but that is normally a local issue made by state and local politicians who give Nike or whoever an enormous tax break over many years to stay put. You or I can complain about that, but not in the same way that I can complain about my money being spent because none of my money is at stake when Nike gets a tax break.
 
I think the problem here is we have no accurate accounting of what exactly constitutes "government money." A tax refund or deduction does not. If you're talking about corporate welfare or something, well good luck drug testing Nabisco.

Corporations are people, my friends.
 
ELC, I disagree with your take that pre-tax and transfer income belongs to the recipient in a way that's different from post-tax and transfer income. It's all socially determined.
 
Actually, the impact of a $100 handout is $100, whereas the impact of a $100 deduction is more likely to be about $15, but I guess it could be as high as around $33.

The MID is a boom to the real estate industry and was certainly a factor in my decision to buy. If it encourages excessive borrowing and sprawly development patterns, then it would follow that it does encourage home ownership. If we are on par with other English-speaking nations, do they have any incentives for home ownership that aren't tax deductions? I don't care if it's unfair to renters. They are renting and don't bear the burdens of maintenance that their landlords do. And in spite of RJ's claims to the contrary, the hit they take on property taxes isn't nearly as substantial either.

*boon
 
The mortgage tax deduction makes little tax sense, but it's also the only tax break regular folk get. So if it goes, so should a bunch of other stuff so the overall rates can come down.

If this is eliminated for low-middle to upper-middle income people, the real estate will tank for man years. The government would almost have to cover hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars in lost equity.

It could devastate the economy for several years.
 
If this is eliminated for low-middle to upper-middle income people, the real estate will tank for man years. The government would almost have to cover hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars in lost equity.

It could devastate the economy for several years.

Something I agree with RJ on. woohooo!
 
Fine, if you say so. It isn't important.

Bottom line is if I take a deduction, it is taken because I am allowed it and because the government has determined that they should not be taxing that income. So the pennies I get on each dollar that I am allowed to deduct were my pennies in the first place. If somebody thinks I should be drug tested in order to be eligible to claim something that is already mine, that is not a reasonable line of thought and is a nonstarter in terms of a rational argument. Furthermore, if somebody thinks I should be drug tested simply because I make a shit-ton of money, they're just as much a bigot as those they claim to abhor. If I am taking welfare (and I will freely admit to thinking basically of food stamps/housing here, and not all the other stuff, but same logic applies), the government is taking taxpayer money that you and I have paid and giving it to the recipient. If somebody thinks drug testing should be a prerequisite for that money, it is a reasonable line of thought but can be argued appropriately. After all, we generally require kids to behave well if they want their Christmas gifts, but the consequences of them getting no gifts at all might be a shitstorm of epic proportions and not worth the trouble.

My money being handed back to me vs My money being handed out out to others by a 3rd party, basically. Yeah, maybe I'd want some say in how my money is spent. Same thing goes if you don't like spending on stealth bombers or whatever, but good luck drug testing Northrup Grumman.

Now if you want to rail about corporate welfare and tax breaks for companies, more power to you, but that is normally a local issue made by state and local politicians who give Nike or whoever an enormous tax break over many years to stay put. You or I can complain about that, but not in the same way that I can complain about my money being spent because none of my money is at stake when Nike gets a tax break.

There's a couple problems with your line of thought here. I'm not going to defend the drug testing, no matter who it's performed on, because the entire underlying premise that drug users should be treated as criminals as opposed to people who need help is wrong. Leaving that aside, though.

1. The first bolded sentence essentially eviscerates your own argument. The US government can, and has, taxed income up to 100%. It still does, for certain types of income it deems illegal (drug sales income, for example). The amount of your income you're allowed to legally keep is a function of governmental discretion. You get to "keep" some because you're allowed to, exactly as you said. If the "government has determined that they should not be taxing that income", it is no different from the government determining a portion of revenues should be paid to welfare recipients, or defense contractors, or whoever.
2. Every tax expenditure - whether deduction or credit - means that someone else has to shoulder the burden for the tax you're not paying, or the government has to borrow the money. So the second bolded sentence applies equally to tax expenditures as it does to welfare payments. I pick on the MID because it's easy to create examples - two taxpayers can be situated exactly the same, neighbors on the same street, but one rents and one owns their cookie cutter house. The renter is obligated to pay the property tax and maintain the property, so the distinction between the two is minimal. Yet the renter is required to pay more income tax than the owner. Why? Because the government has decided it should be so, just as it has decided that feeding kids with food stamps should be done. The distinction you are trying to make is a distinction without a difference.
3. Third bolded sentence: some tax expenditures are in the form of refundable tax credits, which means a person can receive these credits even if they have no taxable income, so they receive a net disbursement/expenditure of government cash. That is even more clearly a situation where the tax expenditure is money taken from all the taxpayers and given to a few. The EITC is the most well known example, but there are others and not all of them are targeted at poor people. Some examples from the 2012 tax year http://www.candofinance.com/taxes/refundable-tax-credits/
4. Finally, once again, the impact of a tax expenditure and a direct payment on the federal budget are exactly the same. Both reduce the amount of revenue available to the government to pay for jet fighters and FBI agents and customs inspectors and interest on the national debt. Without tax expenditures, the rate of tax applied could be significantly lowered while revenue remains the same. Those who don't qualify for the tax expenditure pay a higher rate of tax because of the existence of the tax expenditures. All tax expenditures represent one group of taxpayers subsidizing another group.


I don't expect to convince you of the truth of this argument, because I have found that posters with a known conservative bent are completely immune to logic on this subject. The emotional resonance of the argument "it's my money and I should get to keep it" always defeats logic on this topic. I've said my piece until this comes up in another few months when I'm bored at work.
 
Tax deductions, tax rates, credits, loopholes, etc. etc. etc. - they change all the time as the government manipulates and changes exactly how much of my money they want to take and what type of behavior they want to encourage and discourage. Theories come and go as to what types of tax policies will help the economy, the country and various segments of society. It is like a shell game.

The one constant in all of that? People like me and (most of(ha)) you who have jobs are helping to fund the government with portions of our hard-earned income. You can talk about deductions for the rich and tax breaks all you want but the overall tax burden on most working folks never seems to get appreciably less - mostly it feels like it goes the other way.

The other constant - people who are not working (for whatever reason) and that are receiving government benefits are receiving part of those tax dollars I pay in. No matter what, they are a net drain on the government revenue.

As such, I find it extremely difficult to equate some adjustment to the current tax deduction schemes with welfare payments to people that are not paying anything in.
 
I don't expect to convince you of the truth of this argument, because I have found that posters with a known conservative bent are completely immune to logic on this subject. The emotional resonance of the argument "it's my money and I should get to keep it" always defeats logic on this topic. I've said my piece until this comes up in another few months when I'm bored at work.

Amazing that you wouldn't convince anyone when you are making such a good case for discussion. The crux of the issue is if the money is yours upon earning it, or if it is the governments. Conservatism teaches that when you work for something and earn a profit that the proceeds are yours first, and that the government payment comes second. What you are suggesting is that if I buy materials, make a widget, and sell that widget for a price that before that money comes to me, but that the government controls 100% of that profit and simply doles out to me whatever amount it feels I should receive. Therefore any decrease in the amount it keeps is its right because the money is not mine. I (and conservatives) believe that government taxation is necessity but that the money is first mine, with my obligations to the government coming from my money. It is a fundamental difference in philosophy that you recognize, but it is most certainly not a lapse in LOGIC. You believe the government owns everything you have apparently. I don't. What I earn is mine, and I willingly pay my taxes in accordance to the laws of society and when I feel the burden is unjust I will work to change those laws or change the politicians that write those laws.

It doesn't matter if the government has taxed 100%, or that if the government lowers taxes on someone that another entity has to pick up the slack. Those are inconsequential to who owns the proceeds from work. We are fooled into thinking that taxes come before profits because the large majority of americans have their taxes taken out before they receive their check. I do not, and thus I get a clear picture of the reality of our tax system.

Not taking someones money is not the philosophical equivalent of giving someone money they haven't earned. While with the economic impact might be identical, the philosophy behind such transactions are completely opposite.
 
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Conservatism teaches that when you work for something and earn a profit that the proceeds are yours first, and that the government payment comes second.


that's actually not conservatism, that's John Locke
 
Tax deductions, tax rates, credits, loopholes, etc. etc. etc. - they change all the time as the government manipulates and changes exactly how much of my money they want to take and what type of behavior they want to encourage and discourage. Theories come and go as to what types of tax policies will help the economy, the country and various segments of society. It is like a shell game.

The one constant in all of that? People like me and (most of(ha)) you who have jobs are helping to fund the government with portions of our hard-earned income. You can talk about deductions for the rich and tax breaks all you want but the overall tax burden on most working folks never seems to get appreciably less - mostly it feels like it goes the other way.

The other constant - people who are not working (for whatever reason) and that are receiving government benefits are receiving part of those tax dollars I pay in. No matter what, they are a net drain on the government revenue.

As such, I find it extremely difficult to equate some adjustment to the current tax deduction schemes with welfare payments to people that are not paying anything in.



You're right giving tax deductions to the rich is unjustified.

Or do you believe that children shouldn't be fed or given a roof over their head? Do you believe poor people shouldn't have health coverage?

The thing most people don't realize is how many jobs welfare/food stamps.CHIP create. Basically 100% of all welfare payments go directly back into the economy. You can't say that about the tax deductions.
 
Amazing that you wouldn't convince anyone when you are making such a good case for discussion. The crux of the issue is if the money is yours upon earning it, or if it is the governments. Conservatism teaches that when you work for something and earn a profit that the proceeds are yours first, and that the government payment comes second. What you are suggesting is that if I buy materials, make a widget, and sell that widget for a price that before that money comes to me, but that the government controls 100% of that profit and simply doles out to me whatever amount it feels I should receive. Therefore any decrease in the amount it keeps is its right because the money is not mine. I (and conservatives) believe that government taxation is necessity but that the money is first mine, with my obligations to the government coming from my money. It is a fundamental difference in philosophy that you recognize, but it is most certainly not a lapse in LOGIC. You believe the government owns everything you have apparently. I don't. What I earn is mine, and I willingly pay my taxes in accordance to the laws of society and when I feel the burden is unjust I will work to change those laws or change the politicians that write those laws.

It doesn't matter if the government has taxed 100%, or that if the government lowers taxes on someone that another entity has to pick up the slack. Those are inconsequential to who owns the proceeds from work. We are fooled into thinking that taxes come before profits because the large majority of americans have their taxes taken out before they receive their check. I do not, and thus I get a clear picture of the reality of our tax system.

It is an incredibly silly notion to proclaim that not taking someones money is the philosophical equivalent of giving someone money they haven't earned. While with the economic impact might be identical, the philosophy behind such transactions are completely opposite.

You mischaracterize my argument, sir, and as such I'll respond.

There is no philosophical disagreement between us at all. I'll stipulate to all you have said on the philosophical side of the ledger. What we're talking about here is government budgeting, and specifically, about tax expenditures directed by the government to encourage certain behaviors, or, at least as often, reward economic actors who are politically connected. The point is this: earning $100 is philosophically different from being given $100 by the government. But that is not the same as saying that somehow, you are more entitled to a particular type of tax deduction than your poor neighbor is entitled to a particular type of welfare payment. Why should you be? The government can change either of them, at any time.

Here's a great example from the agricultural world: if you lose money on your farm for 4 years in a row, it will be declared a "hobby" and you won't be able to take any more deductions from your farming activities against your other income. But if you happen to be in the business of thoroughbred horse farming, you get 7 years of losses. Why? Political connections, nothing more. Government doing a favor for one favored group over another. It would be silly for the horse farmers to argue that somehow their tax expenditure is more noble and virtuous than the corn farmer.

So it's fine to draw a moral distinction between a handout and earnings. But it makes no sense at all to look at any given individual tax expenditure, or tax expenditures in the aggregate, and say that these things are distinguishable at all from other forms of government spending. What you are doing is conflating the moral or philosophical issue with the tax policy issue. If we did away with many tax expenditures and instead went to a flatter, lower tax rate, that would accomplish exactly the same thing with less government meddling in the economy. Most conservatives would say that's a good thing, as long as their own pet tax expenditure is not touched. If it is, then suddenly that particular tax expenditure becomes a moral and philosophical issue. It is not, no matter how much you want to make it one.
 
There's a couple problems with your line of thought here. I'm not going to defend the drug testing, no matter who it's performed on, because the entire underlying premise that drug users should be treated as criminals as opposed to people who need help is wrong. Leaving that aside, though.

1. The first bolded sentence essentially eviscerates your own argument. The US government can, and has, taxed income up to 100%. It still does, for certain types of income it deems illegal (drug sales income, for example). I don't think that is a tax - that is a surrender of illegally obtained property. The amount of your income you're allowed to legally keep is a function of governmental discretion. You get to "keep" some because you're allowed to, exactly as you said. If the "government has determined that they should not be taxing that income", it is no different from the government determining a portion of revenues should be paid to welfare recipients, or defense contractors, or whoever. Just because they both impact revenue doesn't mean they are the same.
2. Every tax expenditure - whether deduction or credit - means that someone else has to shoulder the burden for the tax you're not paying, or the government has to borrow the money. Not necessarily true - an adjustment to deductions or credits is probably accompanied by other adjustments to other deductions and credits - in an overall plan to adjust tax policy. The overall changes may decrease overall revenue or may increase overall revenue but will, as you point out, shift the burden around among the tax payers according to how their situation fits with the new tax policy. But the other side of the governmental budgeting equation that we haven't mentioned is spending. Instead of borrowing the money or collecting it from someone else, the government could (shocking, I know) decide not to spend money that it doesn't have. So the second bolded sentence applies equally to tax expenditures as it does to welfare payments. I pick on the MID because it's easy to create examples - two taxpayers can be situated exactly the same, neighbors on the same street, but one rents and one owns their cookie cutter house. The renter is obligated to pay the property tax Is this true? I have never heard of that and am pretty sure I didn't when I was a renter? and maintain the property, so the distinction between the two is minimal. Yet the renter is required to pay more income tax than the owner. Why? Because the government has decided it should be so, just as it has decided that feeding kids with food stamps should be done. The distinction you are trying to make is a distinction without a difference.
3. Third bolded sentence: some tax expenditures are in the form of refundable tax credits, which means a person can receive these credits even if they have no taxable income, so they receive a net disbursement/expenditure of government cash. That is even more clearly a situation where the tax expenditure is money taken from all the taxpayers and given to a few. The EITC is the most well known example, but there are others and not all of them are targeted at poor people. Some examples from the 2012 tax year http://www.candofinance.com/taxes/refundable-tax-credits/
4. Finally, once again, the impact of a tax expenditure and a direct payment on the federal budget are exactly the same. Both reduce the amount of revenue available to the government to pay for jet fighters and FBI agents and customs inspectors and interest on the national debt. Without tax expenditures, the rate of tax applied could be significantly lowered while revenue remains the same. It would all be the same game, though - just moving tax policy around to differently allocate the burden. Some people would pay less, some would pay more. Those who don't qualify for the tax expenditure pay a higher rate of tax because of the existence of the tax expenditures. All tax expenditures represent one group of taxpayers subsidizing another group. Taxpayers are free to change their behavior to better position themselves to take advantage of current tax policy.


I don't expect to convince you of the truth of this argument, because I have found that posters with a known conservative bent are completely immune to logic on this subject. The emotional resonance of the argument "it's my money and I should get to keep it" always defeats logic on this topic. I've said my piece until this comes up in another few months when I'm bored at work.

The one thing all those tax payers have in common is that they are paying taxes...
 
There's a couple problems with your line of thought here. I'm not going to defend the drug testing, no matter who it's performed on, because the entire underlying premise that drug users should be treated as criminals as opposed to people who need help is wrong. Leaving that aside, though.

1. The first bolded sentence essentially eviscerates your own argument. The US government can, and has, taxed income up to 100%. It still does, for certain types of income it deems illegal (drug sales income, for example). The amount of your income you're allowed to legally keep is a function of governmental discretion. You get to "keep" some because you're allowed to, exactly as you said. If the "government has determined that they should not be taxing that income", it is no different from the government determining a portion of revenues should be paid to welfare recipients, or defense contractors, or whoever.
2. Every tax expenditure - whether deduction or credit - means that someone else has to shoulder the burden for the tax you're not paying, or the government has to borrow the money. So the second bolded sentence applies equally to tax expenditures as it does to welfare payments. I pick on the MID because it's easy to create examples - two taxpayers can be situated exactly the same, neighbors on the same street, but one rents and one owns their cookie cutter house. The renter is obligated to pay the property tax and maintain the property, so the distinction between the two is minimal. Yet the renter is required to pay more income tax than the owner. Why? Because the government has decided it should be so, just as it has decided that feeding kids with food stamps should be done. The distinction you are trying to make is a distinction without a difference.
3. Third bolded sentence: some tax expenditures are in the form of refundable tax credits, which means a person can receive these credits even if they have no taxable income, so they receive a net disbursement/expenditure of government cash. That is even more clearly a situation where the tax expenditure is money taken from all the taxpayers and given to a few. The EITC is the most well known example, but there are others and not all of them are targeted at poor people. Some examples from the 2012 tax year http://www.candofinance.com/taxes/refundable-tax-credits/
4. Finally, once again, the impact of a tax expenditure and a direct payment on the federal budget are exactly the same. Both reduce the amount of revenue available to the government to pay for jet fighters and FBI agents and customs inspectors and interest on the national debt. Without tax expenditures, the rate of tax applied could be significantly lowered while revenue remains the same. Those who don't qualify for the tax expenditure pay a higher rate of tax because of the existence of the tax expenditures. All tax expenditures represent one group of taxpayers subsidizing another group.


I don't expect to convince you of the truth of this argument, because I have found that posters with a known conservative bent are completely immune to logic on this subject. The emotional resonance of the argument "it's my money and I should get to keep it" always defeats logic on this topic. I've said my piece until this comes up in another few months when I'm bored at work.

The social compact (or implied social contract) dictates that there is a cost associated to living in a society. The fact that government has the power to take all of your money does not mean that any society would allow that or an implied contract would be that completely one sided. The money that you earn does not belong to the government, who then allows you to keep a portion of it. The money that you earn belongs to you. You owe a portion of that money (sometimes a negative portion) to the government.

The view that all money belongs to the government is analogous to slavery as money is the fruit of your labor (or someone else's). If the government owns the fruit of your labor, you have only as much freedom as the government allows you to have. This is definitely not how this country was designed to operate.

The view that the money you earn belongs to the government is a particularly nasty viewpoint that cannot co-exist with a free society based on free markets. That viewpoint is well on the way to a totalitarian system.
 
923, there may actually be a reason for the corn vs. horse farm difference. It would be especially be logical for when one starts a horse farm.

If you are raising corn, it may take a couple of years to get how to plant,etc., correct. However, if you have a horse farm (unless it's strictly boarding), it will take at least 2-4 years to get your horses to the track if you are breeding or raising horses. If you are setting it up as a training venue, it will take time to get clientele.

This may not be the best example.
 
The one thing all those tax payers have in common is that they are paying taxes...

the fun part about this discussion is that no matter what you believe, in the end, it's the government letting you keep money.
 
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