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Liberal Disenchantment with Obama is Real RJ

What more is there to be done in Iraq and AFG other than kill terrorist leaders that get replaced by other terrorist leaders?

Eventually these countries have to run themselves, don't they? What can we do in the 11th year that we couldn't in the first 10?

I would think we could continue having a small presence in both countries and basically my understanding is that we will have just a small number of advisors in Iraq soon right? It does seem we can start drawing down in Afghanistan soon, just not tell the Taliban how many and when etc. And I would think we would be able to continue the drone attacks there without having a large number of soldiers on the ground. We can launch the drones from ships right? So yeh, it's more and more looking like I agree with you that we can draw down in Afghanistan and let them figure out how to govern themselves.
 
I would think we could continue having a small presence in both countries and basically my understanding is that we will have just a small number of advisors in Iraq soon right? It does seem we can start drawing down in Afghanistan soon, just not tell the Taliban how many and when etc. And I would think we would be able to continue the drone attacks there without having a large number of soldiers on the ground. We can launch the drones from ships right? So yeh, it's more and more looking like I agree with you that we can draw down in Afghanistan and let them figure out how to govern themselves.

US forces really aren't going to be in Iraq very much longer. My friend who is Platoon Sgt. in the 82nd Airborne told me that his battalion (2nd) is going to be the last to leave Iraq, and they are planned to return in late November.
 
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My friend who is Lt. Commander in the 82nd Airborne told me that his battalion (2nd) is going to be the last to leave Iraq, and they are planned to return in late November.

You have a friend who is a "Lt. Commander" in the 82nd Airborne?
 
Count me as a lib who is very dissatisfied with Obama. I don't have the link but recently a liberal columnist wrote about the numerous promise-backtracks and policies of Bush which Obama has continued. I don't like politicians making campaign promises, but if they're dumb enough to do it, I expect them to honor what they say. Frankly, Obama's environmental record dismays me greatly.

That said, there isn't a single Republican I consider any more appealing than your average clown. Frankly, that goes for Democrats too. They're all playing the same game of pandering to the average American intellect and attention span. That means you repeatedly tell the same fart joke while listening to the crap music and wearing a pro-wrestling t-shirt. Chuck Schumer is about the closest candidate I'd vote for but even he has some major issues as far as I'm concerned.

this (aside from the schumer stuff) is exactly how I feel
 
Lost in this conversation is that liberals are always bitching about something and have no concept of politics.

They'll get on board once they see the alternative. If the choice is Obama or at least four more years of Bush era style rule, they'll show up. I'm sure Obama can find some spare change to set up the doomsday scenario for them.

Well looks like "The Salon" liberal site has the same viewpoint that I do concerning the "Obama 2008 Coalition". So maybe my liberal friends on here can discount "conservative" articles but not the liberal ones.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/j...6/15/mirage_of_the_obama_coalition/index.html
 
That article is basically what I was talking about.
 
Of course one has to laugh at the party-liners on both sides who simply cannot accept that their counterparts on the other side of the political spectrum can have opposing beliefs and still be intelligent and reasonable people. See also: Ph's posts.
 
Liberals are never satisfied, especially the hard left. This is news? But they'll still vote for Obama in droves, if only to block another republican administration. The other basic truth about the hard left is that they really, really hate the GOP.

The last few elections have shown that both sides are getting too smart to be apathetic going into any national race. The margins are too small. I highly doubt turnout will be a problem for either side in 2012, especially the Dem side, because turnout is also a product of campaign strategy and funding. In 2008 Obama had the best logistical turnout strategy ever, and he can likely make up for any drop in motivation by an increase in cash to drive turnout.

You have to understand how hard it will be to beat anyone who can raise close to a billion dollar war-chest. It's hard to fathom the kind of advantage that will give Obama. Add in that he's going to face a weak GOP challenger and be the incumbent and you have a mountain to climb even with a strong candidate.

The margin will not be historic, or even on par with 2008, but if Obama loses it will an incredible political upset. Without an intervening event of some nature that serves as a complete game-changer, this race will essentially by like the 1998 Bulls' championship. Six games, some tense moments, but ultimately a foregone conclusion.

Count me in among those who will vote for Obama as the better of two finite choices and not because he's delivered everything I wanted, or even close. But I will vote again for a "B"-grade president to retain the office over what the GOP is currently offering me. So will the majority, IMO.
 
Liberals are never satisfied, especially the hard left. This is news?

Not unless you're saying it's a condition exclusive to liberals. Sounds like you're saying conservatives are always satisfied, especially the hard right.
 
Fair point. Neither flank is ever getting everything they want (thank goodness), so they are always angry at their incumbent/party right up until the moment they vote for them again.

IN 2004, the hard right was not a fan of Bush's incredible spending and poor military planning and execution, but they didn't forget to show up and vote for him on Tuesday.
 
Liberals are never satisfied, especially the hard left. This is news? But they'll still vote for Obama in droves, if only to block another republican administration. The other basic truth about the hard left is that they really, really hate the GOP.

The last few elections have shown that both sides are getting too smart to be apathetic going into any national race. The margins are too small. I highly doubt turnout will be a problem for either side in 2012, especially the Dem side, because turnout is also a product of campaign strategy and funding. In 2008 Obama had the best logistical turnout strategy ever, and he can likely make up for any drop in motivation by an increase in cash to drive turnout.

You have to understand how hard it will be to beat anyone who can raise close to a billion dollar war-chest. It's hard to fathom the kind of advantage that will give Obama. Add in that he's going to face a weak GOP challenger and be the incumbent and you have a mountain to climb even with a strong candidate.

The margin will not be historic, or even on par with 2008, but if Obama loses it will an incredible political upset. Without an intervening event of some nature that serves as a complete game-changer, this race will essentially by like the 1998 Bulls' championship. Six games, some tense moments, but ultimately a foregone conclusion.

Count me in among those who will vote for Obama as the better of two finite choices and not because he's delivered everything I wanted, or even close. But I will vote again for a "B"-grade president to retain the office over what the GOP is currently offering me. So will the majority, IMO.

How does a war chest counterbalance apathy, unless you are talking straight cash payments? Obama got his 2008 turnout because of 2 things: (1) hatred of Bush; and (2) novelty. Neither of those things will be present in 2012. Regardless of the level of campaign funding, I just don't see how he gets Joe the parking attendant, who never voted prior to 2008 and voted in 2008 because it was the cool thing to do that he thought would change the world, to turn out again after seeing that it didn't change shit from his perspective. He'll be at work or playing XBox or in the drive-thru line at Wendy's, just like any other Tuesday.
 
Fair point. Neither flank is ever getting everything they want (thank goodness), so they are always angry at their incumbent/party right up until the moment they vote for them again.

IN 2004, the hard right was not a fan of Bush's incredible spending and poor military planning and execution, but they didn't forget to show up and vote for him on Tuesday.

Exactly! Whoever can win the "mushy middle" wins the election.
 
How does a war chest counterbalance apathy, unless you are talking straight cash payments? Obama got his 2008 turnout because of 2 things: (1) hatred of Bush; and (2) novelty. Neither of those things will be present in 2012. Regardless of the level of campaign funding, I just don't see how he gets Joe the parking attendant, who never voted prior to 2008 and voted in 2008 because it was the cool thing to do that he thought would change the world, to turn out again after seeing that it didn't change shit from his perspective. He'll be at work or playing XBox or in the drive-thru line at Wendy's, just like any other Tuesday.

Because I find your encapsulation of the 2008 turnout to be pretty naive (I doubt you really mean it), and your prediction on 2012 to be largely hope-based.

In 2008, Obama put more boots on the ground going door-to-door, more effort into voter-by-voter registration, more cash into database construction and updates, more workers into the field drumming up Dems for a quick jaunt down to the polls on election day, and more money on the airwaves than any candidate before him. Ever. You think this wasn't fundamentally important to high turnout?

In politics money talks, not hatred, "hope and change," or novelty. There is a direct, quantifiable correlation between dollars legally spent in any district and turnout. You might not always be able to spend enough to sway voters -- although you usually can -- but you can always spend enough to drive turnout. In 2008, Obama sent workers to stop by and speak to basically every registered Democrat in any metropolitan area. It was incredible.

He can do it again in 2012, because he can make up for lost volunteers with paid employees. This time around, he'll have more even money to get people to vote. There are always more Dems than Pubs, X-Box playing Wendy's eaters notwithstanding. And Obama's reelection does not hang in the balance of the whims of some skateboarder who just turned 22. Obama just needs a decent turnout to win--he doesn't need 2008 numbers to stave off a fairly historically weak GOP field while already holding the office.

And the idea that Dems are suddenly going to be passive and not care who wins is silly, even if they didn't get everything they wanted in the first term. The left has a pretty healthy dislike for the right that will get them to bother to vote. Further, getting voters to their first election is usually the challenge. Getting them to their second is much easier. With the improvement of voting technology and the advent of online outreach, this will likely be more and more true as we moving deeper into the internet era.

In 2008 Obama did harness a ton of enthusiasm, sure, and Bush hate, but he also had the cash to outspend McCain on logisitics something like 25:1, while being more organized and up-to-date on the best way to do it. The GOP will face similar margins in 2012. It's a mountain to climb.

Just my opinion.
 
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Exactly! Whoever can win the "mushy middle" wins the election.

And, sadly, funding is usually the most important factor in influencing the mushy middle. After all, by definition they can be swayed. When your candidate can talk to them more often -- media buys, door-to-door visits, direct marketing, etc. -- than the other side, it's a huge advantage. In fact, it's usually the deciding advantage.
 
Because I find your encapsulation of the 2008 turnout to be pretty naive (I doubt you really mean it), and your prediction on 2012 to be largely hope-based.

In 2008, Obama put more boots on the ground going door-to-door, more effort into voter-by-voter registration, more cash into database construction and updates, more workers into the field drumming up Dems for a quick jaunt down to the polls on election day, and more money on the airwaves than any candidate before him. Ever. You think this wasn't fundamentally important to high turnout?

In politics money talks, not hatred, "hope and change," or novelty. There is a direct, quantifiable correlation between dollars legally spent in any district and turnout. You might not always be able to spend enough to sway voters -- although you usually can -- but you can always spend enough to drive turnout. In 2008, Obama sent workers to stop by and speak to basically every registered Democrat in any metropolitan area. It was incredible.

He can do it again in 2012, because he can make up for lost volunteers with paid employees. This time around, he'll have more even money to get people to vote. There are always more Dems than Pubs, X-Box playing Wendy's eaters notwithstanding. And Obama's reelection does not hang in the balance of the whims of some skateboarder who just turned 22. Obama just needs a decent turnout to win--he doesn't need 2008 numbers to stave off a fairly historically weak GOP field while already holding the office.

And the idea that Dems are suddenly going to be passive and not care who wins is silly, even if they didn't get everything they wanted in the first term. The left has a pretty healthy dislike for the right that will get them to bother to vote. Further, getting voters to their first election is usually the challenge. Getting them to their second is much easier. With the improvement of voting technology and the advent of online outreach, this will likely be more and more true as we moving deeper into the internet era.

In 2008 Obama did harness a ton of enthusiasm, sure, and Bush hate, but he also had the cash to outspend McCain on logisitics something like 25:1, while being more organized and up-to-date on the best way to do it. The GOP will face similar margins in 2012. It's a mountain to climb.

Just my opinion.

But he didn't win by a 25:1 ratio, even spending that money. He won by what - 6%? I think we're going to have at least a 6% drop-off in voter turnout of Obama's supporters just due to general apathy. Combine that with the preference swings and I think he will be lucky to win: I don't know of anybody who voted for McCain who will now vote for Obama, but I do know plenty of people who voted for Obama who will now vote for anybody else. The "mushy middle" doesn't need to have Obama speak to them, they've heard him enough already. They were all in his corner in 2008, so he has nowhere to go but down.
 
You could make a fortune betting against Obama.....
 
But he didn't win by a 25:1 ratio, even spending that money. He won by what - 6%? I think we're going to have at least a 6% drop-off in voter turnout of Obama's supporters just due to general apathy. Combine that with the preference swings and I think he will be lucky to win: I don't know of anybody who voted for McCain who will now vote for Obama, but I do know plenty of people who voted for Obama who will now vote for anybody else. The "mushy middle" doesn't need to have Obama speak to them, they've heard him enough already. They were all in his corner in 2008, so he has nowhere to go but down.

His numbers will surely go down. But, electorally, he won by such a margin in 2008 that it would take a sea change to beat him in 2012. He has the money to make such a sea change highly unlikely. The field of hopefuls make such a change even less so. Americans have shown an enduring preference for incumbents they know rather than weak candidates they don't, even if approval numbers would have you believe otherwise.

There is no "anybody else" vote in American politics. This is not an up-or-down vote of confidence in the executive. The Pubs have to run an option, and, the field looking like it is -- and with the huge advantages Obama has in money and incumbency -- Obama looks a very solid bet for another four years. IMO, barring an intervening game-changer, the middle is more likely to be inclined toward Obama's familiar, placid pragmatism than toward a hard-right conservative retread without executive experience.

And if you're a betting man, in politics you put your money where the other money is. That's how it got there in the first place.
 
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