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Mt. Tabor High Shooting

For the record, we all went to wake, so we're all operating on a baseline of way above-average intelligence (other than DV7, but that's cool). Appreciate folks staying respectful.

Imma go ahead and carve DV7 out of that doe. It's just gotta be done (like Mako's mom). I'm sorry. I don't make the rules.
 
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

Looks like firearms-related homicides are fairly flat. If burglaries are going down and that's the link to decrease illegal firearms, we should see a decrease in firearms related homicides and an increase in other homicides (or a decrease in all). And that doesn't seem to be reflected.

DfpBvs2.png
 
I appreciate Rafi owning this thread. He's not rebuttable, so it all goes back to I have the right to protect my family and from my cold dead hands. It's all they have. That and the ridiculous I'm going to fight the government BS.

Just say you have guns because you like them and they're fun. I would appreciate finally getting some honesty.
 
bym051d said:
What kinds of changes? We already imprison so many people.
Click to expand...

There are lots, but one of the changes was to make people go to prison less. Kinda?

The federal law in 1980 got all fucked up when it came to guns. Like, we put into place this three-strikes law called the Armed Career Criminal Act (ACCA). If you get caught with a gun and you're an ACCA, then it's 15-Life. Period. Nothing the Judge or lawyers can do.

Typical Congress unwittingly (?) made this law crazy overbroad. When you see "Career Criminal" you're thinking fucking El Chapo, right? Naw, it's some 18 year old kid who (in North Carolina) went out on one single night when he was 15 and robbed three storage units.

See, the way the law is written, each individual storage unit counts as a separate offense. It's AMAZING how often this happens. Because, at the time, prosecutors in North Carolina were like, "defense attorney, I know your 14 year old client isn't a bad kid. I'll let him plea to the 3 Breaking or Enterings and we'll do a year of probation." EVERYONE was like, "yeah, that's totally reasonable."

But then like 30 years later, the 14 year old kid is 34 and joins a cub scout group for his kids. A disgruntled mom is like, "yo, I saw you plinking .22 shots with your kid at the cub scout range. I think you're a piece of shit and I'm reporting you." Bam. 15 years. Regardless if the guy cured cancer between 14 and 34.

The real perversion of this is that no one on the federal side knows it's going to be 15 years until after the guy has been charged thanks to the way congress wrote the law -- it's not an actual "crime;" it's a "sentencing enhancement." So the Court doesn't make the finding until right before sentencing.

Straight up, there are times when a less-than-seasoned attorney jumps in to federal court and gets a client who fails to disclose a juvenile record (or maybe wasn't even asked) and BAM, sentencing hits 15 years (instead of, like, 22 months). OUT OF NO WHERE. BAAAAAMMMMM GET FUCKED 20 year old kid with a shitty attorney. GETTTTT FUUUUCCKKKKEEEDD


ETA --shit. Sorry. I hate that law so much I got caught up not answering your question. The reason that "burglaries" may have gone down in that timeframe is that state-level attorneys have started to get smart about the federal ACCA, so they plead their defendants away from "burglaries" and to stuff like larcenies and shit.
 
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Shooshmoo said:
I appreciate Rafi owning this thread. He's not rebuttable, so it all goes back to I have the right to protect my family and from my cold dead hands. It's all they have. That and the ridiculous I'm going to fight the government BS.

Just say you have guns because you like them and they're fun. I would appreciate finally getting some honesty.
Click to expand...

Again, it's very simple and there's no need to overcomplicate things. If more guns made us safer, we would be, by far, the safest country on earth (spoiler, we're not even close). The US has 5% of the world's population and 45% of the guns. If more guns made us safer, the graph of gun ownership vs homicides would be reversed (it's not).
 
the sad thing is, most of us actually agree that there should be stronger restrictions on who owns guns. We're hardly even arguing about what's important, and instead we argue about bullshit. I'd say 98% of the group that has weighed in would be fine with some restrictions so let's just make that happen - then you guys can go back to being RGOs and measuring your dicks with your pistols. (i'll need a rifle)
 
DeacDiggler said:
the sad thing is, most of us actually agree that there should be stronger restrictions on who owns guns. We're hardly even arguing about what's important, and instead we argue about bullshit. I'd say 98% of the group that has weighed in would be fine with some restrictions so let's just make that happen - then you guys can go back to being RGOs and measuring your dicks with your pistols. (i'll need a rifle)
Click to expand...

YOU'LL SHOOT YOUR DICK OFF !!

CDan8.gif
 
A school resource officer found a gun on a Parkland High student today. Wondering if metal detectors are coming soon to WSFCS.
 
BubbaJean said:
A school resource officer found a gun on a Parkland High student today. Wondering if metal detectors are coming soon to WSFCS.
Click to expand...

What if that kid was just a responsible gun owner who wanted to protect his friends?
 
Donkey Deac Doug said:
There are lots, but one of the changes was to make people go to prison less. Kinda?

The federal law in 1980 got all fucked up when it came to guns. Like, we put into place this three-strikes law called the Armed Career Criminal Act (ACCA). If you get caught with a gun and you're an ACCA, then it's 15-Life. Period. Nothing the Judge or lawyers can do.

Typical Congress unwittingly (?) made this law crazy overbroad. When you see "Career Criminal" you're thinking fucking El Chapo, right? Naw, it's some 18 year old kid who (in North Carolina) went out on one single night when he was 15 and robbed three storage units.

See, the way the law is written, each individual storage unit counts as a separate offense. It's AMAZING how often this happens. Because, at the time, prosecutors in North Carolina were like, "defense attorney, I know your 14 year old client isn't a bad kid. I'll let him plea to the 3 Breaking or Enterings and we'll do a year of probation." EVERYONE was like, "yeah, that's totally reasonable."

But then like 30 years later, the 14 year old kid is 34 and joins a cub scout group for his kids. A disgruntled mom is like, "yo, I saw you plinking .22 shots with your kid at the cub scout range. I think you're a piece of shit and I'm reporting you." Bam. 15 years. Regardless if the guy cured cancer between 14 and 34.

The real perversion of this is that no one on the federal side knows it's going to be 15 years until after the guy has been charged thanks to the way congress wrote the law -- it's not an actual "crime;" it's a "sentencing enhancement." So the Court doesn't make the finding until right before sentencing.

Straight up, there are times when a less-than-seasoned attorney jumps in to federal court and gets a client who fails to disclose a juvenile record (or maybe wasn't even asked) and BAM, sentencing hits 15 years (instead of, like, 22 months). OUT OF NO WHERE. BAAAAAMMMMM GET FUCKED 20 year old kid with a shitty attorney. GETTTTT FUUUUCCKKKKEEEDD


ETA --shit. Sorry. I hate that law so much I got caught up not answering your question. The reason that "burglaries" may have gone down in that timeframe is that state-level attorneys have started to get smart about the federal ACCA, so they plead their defendants away from "burglaries" and to stuff like larcenies and shit.
Click to expand...

I appreciate this post, but as a social scientist I do feel compelled to note that all crime stats are reflective of the implementation of laws rather than representative of the frequency of the underlying crime or criminal behavior. That and the relationship between contemporary policy and crime rates is pure correlation. Happy to provide citations/papers if folks PM.
 
Just for fun I will point out that the real conversation about gun ownership and any potential restrictions or burdens thereon is one of freedom and how that freedom can legally be limited. The American way of life starts with the premise that individuals are free to do what they wish without interference or restriction by the government. Laws obviously make certain acts illegal, but generally Americans feel like they should be able to buy, sell, own, and do whatever they want. All of the justifications for gun ownership like family defense, hunting, whatever, really boil down to freedom to do what I want.

On the other hand, a safe and ordered society requires that individual freedoms be limited where they begin to infringe on the freedoms of others. As the old saying goes, your freedom to swing your fists stops where my nose is. So that is why things like assault, battery, murder, theft, etc. are illegal - and can also explain things like noise ordinances and public nuisance laws. Constitutionally, you can limit or place restrictions on freedoms when the public good, or the rights of others, requires it.

With respect to gun ownership, the fact that it is specifically protected in the Constitution makes the burden higher for showing that the burdens you want to place on the right are reasonably necessary to protect the public good and are the least restrictive burdens possible to serve the intended purpose. It has been a long time since my Constitutional Law class days so I am likely butchering the analysis - but it goes something like that.

Anyway, I think it is clear at this point that the public good requires that further restrictions be placed on the right to own guns. I don't know anyone that wouldn't agree with that statement.
 
PhDeac said:
What if that kid was just a responsible gun owner who wanted to protect his friends?
Click to expand...

I know this is an attempted joke, but part of being a responsible gun owner is following rules about where guns are, and are not, allowed.
 
wakelaw13 said:
I know this is an attempted joke, but part of being a responsible gun owner is following rules about where guns are, and are not, allowed.
Click to expand...

Yes. And in this discussion about making new rules to curb gun violence, the most common counter argument is "what about the responsible gun owner?"
 
scooter84 said:
Anyway, I think it is clear at this point that the public good requires that further restrictions be placed on the right to own guns. I don't know anyone that wouldn't agree with that statement.
Click to expand...

The biggest problem is one side sees any deaths caused by guns as just watering the tree of liberty. There are no gun laws that are acceptable.

We can't even get enough people to vote for background checks on all purchases / transfers.
 
wakelaw13 said:
I know this is an attempted joke, but part of being a responsible gun owner is following rules about where guns are, and are not, allowed.
Click to expand...

Like responsible felon G Gordon Liddy used to say, he doesn't own any guns, but his wife has a lot.
 
It would be political suicide for any Republican to want to bring about any new gun restrictions, so if you want any of these common-sense laws, you have to vote Dem. Now, the Dems love to screw up power when they have it, but it's at least possible this way.
 
PhDeac said:
Yes. And in this discussion about making new rules to curb gun violence, the most common counter argument is "what about the responsible gun owner?"
Click to expand...

If that's the goal, shouldn't we focus our efforts on people that are actually committing gun violence, rather than the law-abiding citizens who the statistics show don't?
 
WokeandBroke said:
If that's the goal, shouldn't we focus our efforts on people that are actually committing gun violence, rather than the law-abiding citizens who the statistics show don't?
Click to expand...

Great. Let's make shooting someone a crime and put people who do it in jail.

Problem solved.
 
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