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New Krugman piece - The Medicare Miracle

Okay, well then he doesn't appear to be trumpeting fear from the mountaintops. I don't know a ton about the guy and am not defending him, but it seems to be completely different than the fraud that Krugman is trying to perpetuate.
 
Okay, well then he doesn't appear to be trumpeting fear from the mountaintops. I don't know a ton about the guy and am not defending him, but it seems to be completely different than the fraud that Krugman is trying to perpetuate.

Spot on.
 
Huh? The relevant data has not changed. It sounds like Ryan is doing what you asked him to do and stopped trying to beat a dead horse that obvsiouly is not going to get repealed given Congress' current composition. Why would his lack of harping on the APA have anything to do with completely irrelevant data? ISIS cut off some dude's head, so clearly the sky is not falling with respect to the ACA.
 
So, the talking point is that the title is stupid? Got it.
 
Huh? The relevant data has not changed. It sounds like Ryan is doing what you asked him to do and stopped trying to beat a dead horse that obvsiouly is not going to get repealed given Congress' current composition. Why would his lack of harping on the APA have anything to do with completely irrelevant data? ISIS cut off some dude's head, so clearly the sky is not falling with respect to the ACA.

WTF?
 
All good points, and 923 did a good job summarizing, because this is slightly shifting the goalpoasts. Because as health spending was dropping, why wasn't the CBO accounting for it with its ten-year projections circa 08-10 when the aforementioned GOP loonies were saying the sky was falling? And the chart of slowing per-beneficiary growth is for A and B, not D, which was the focus here, and Krugman's postulation. He perhaps takes his thesis too far in suggesting a Medicare miracle or in wanting to give all of the credit to Obama for something (CBO projection) he had little to nothing to do with.

My continued point has only been that the sky was never falling.
One of the basic tenets used to advocate for government controlled healthcare has been the "runaway" costs of healthcare. We've been told for decades that the private sector can not control costs because of greed and only government can prevent it. That's the message in this article too. Krugman is essentially proclaiming some sort of victory for government controlled health care because it supposedly contained those runaway costs...ie the miracle. The problem was SOOOO bad cost wise......that it's a miracle to be fixed. What is the difference between that and what you're attributing to arguments by GOP loonies? Both arguments were made from the same exact premise, they just offered/wanted different solutions.
 
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I don't follow them that closely, but I don't think their message has changed from 2010, has it? They had their reasoning why the ACA blows, and they still push that same reasoning. I don't think they have deviated from that initial projection. That is completely different from Krugman trying to dishonestly assert that some new data has arisen between the implementation of the ACA and now that indicates it actually has been a success.
Both have backed away from overly criticizing the ACA compared to 2010. I think politically they see the ACA as having so many fundamental implementation problems that going negative isn't necessary. Paul has actually come out and said he might be in favor of maintaining the state exchanges and repealing the rest, which was actually spun as some sort of reversal of opinion. I think in reality it was more about retooling the mechanism (exchange) to fit his vision with state control instead of federal control.
 
One of the basic tenants used to advocate for government controlled healthcare has been the "runaway" costs of healthcare. We've been told for decades that the private sector can not control costs because of greed and only government can prevent it. That's the message in this article too. Krugman is essentially proclaiming some sort of victory for government controlled health care because it supposedly contained those runaway costs...ie the miracle. The problem was SOOOO bad cost wise......that it's a miracle to be fixed. What is the difference between that and what you're attributing to arguments by GOP loonies? Both arguments were made from the same exact premise, they just offered/wanted different solutions.

*tenets
 
One of the basic tenants used to advocate for government controlled healthcare has been the "runaway" costs of healthcare. We've been told for decades that the private sector can not control costs because of greed and only government can prevent it. That's the message in this article too. Krugman is essentially proclaiming some sort of victory for government controlled health care because it supposedly contained those runaway costs...ie the miracle. The problem was SOOOO bad cost wise......that it's a miracle to be fixed. What is the difference between that and what you're attributing to arguments by GOP loonies? Both arguments were made from the same exact premise, they just offered/wanted different solutions.

And the "runaway" costs started when government started getting involved in a big way with Medicare/Medicaid. It is what government does all the time: breaks your legs and then hands you a rusty old crutch and says "See, if it weren't for me, you couldn't walk." Without so much government involvement we would now have a better, cheaper, more effective system of health care.
 
When was government not involved in a big way in Medicare and Medicaid considering they are government programs?
 
This is about the point in the thread where I generally post the studies showing how countries with far more government involvement in health care pay far less for it than we do, dare the libertarians to counter this with real evidence, and nobody does. So let's just assume that's all happened and go back to arguing over Krugtron.
 
This is about the point in the thread where I generally post the studies showing how countries with far more government involvement in health care pay far less for it than we do, dare the libertarians to counter this with real evidence, and nobody does. So let's just assume that's all happened and go back to arguing over Krugtron.

I'm cool with that.
 
This is about the point in the thread where I generally post the studies showing how countries with far more government involvement in health care pay far less for it than we do, dare the libertarians to counter this with real evidence, and nobody does. So let's just assume that's all happened and go back to arguing over Krugtron.

Are you sure you don't want to compare apples and oranges again to show how good an idea it is to have rulers force one person to pay another person's bills?
 
Are you sure you don't want to compare apples and oranges again to show how good an idea it is to have rulers force one person to pay another person's bills?

We already do it in many ways. Studies show 10-14% of everyone's insurance premiums are to pay for the uninsured. People pay real estate taxes who never have children in the local schools. People in cities walk on streets they don't pay taxes to use.

Your premise is inane and only workable if you live on a private island that has nothing to do with any other country or humans.
 
BTW, the biggest reason for "runaway costs" (which have flattened out) is the existence of the insurance companies. They provide nothing to the consumers and create totally unnecessary costs.
 
BTW, the biggest reason for "runaway costs" (which have flattened out) is the existence of the insurance companies. They provide nothing to the consumers and create totally unnecessary costs.

Holy shit I 100% agree with RJ about healthcare. My loathing for insurance companies and HMOs for being nothing more than useless middlemen and parasites has led me to conclude that we should just say fuck it and go single payer.
 
BTW, the biggest reason for "runaway costs" (which have flattened out) is the existence of the insurance companies. They provide nothing to the consumers and create totally unnecessary costs.

Not even close to being true.
 
This is about the point in the thread where I generally post the studies showing how countries with far more government involvement in health care pay far less for it than we do, dare the libertarians to counter this with real evidence, and nobody does. So let's just assume that's all happened and go back to arguing over Krugtron.
The counter arguments and reasons are well known and have been raised on here. We pay the development costs for all the technology + any production costs. Everyone else just pays production costs because little is developed there. Costs for development are enormous. We have one of the most genetically diverse populations of any country on the planet which drives up costs tremendously...they don't. Programs in other countries also ration and get less care in general (which is actually being trumpeted as a great success by Krugtron BTW), especially high tech things like MRIs. All of those things make it more expensive here.

One can argue about whether we get better care or not. Studies on individual disease states using lifespan analysis say yes. Aggregate subjective studies that never normalize for the our increased diversity and massive immigration say no. I tend to believe actual lifespan metrics myself which is what counts and is the former. Regardless of that politically charged debate, there is no debate that we get the benefits of technology/jobs in science/technology. Some of that technology expertise spins off into other things like food tech, which also helps everyone else and provides more jobs. We essentially subsidize the world's healthcare and food supply.

I don't really have a problem with being the technology leader and bearing those costs, but that advantage and the technology/jobs that come with it will go away if we go to big government healthcare systems. The ACA already taxes medical device companies and they are moving increasingly offshore because of the disincentive. One recent study even claims those taxes cost 33,000 high tech jobs in 2013, between layoffs and planned hires not happening. That isn't a good thing IMO.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/23/obamacare-medical-device-tax-led-to-loss-of-33000-/

As for the cost of technology....it's an enormously expensive endeavor that most don't appreciate. That's the main reason it costs so much.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/2014/01/06/why-drugs-are-expensive-its-the-science-stupid/

Often you will hear people talking about why drugs are expensive: it’s the greedy pharmaceutical companies, the patent system, the government, capitalism itself. All these factors contribute to increasing the price of a drug, but one very important factor often gets entirely overlooked: Drugs are expensive because the science of drug discovery is hard. And it’s just getting harder. In fact purely on a scientific level, taking a drug all the way from initial discovery to market is considered harder than putting a man on the moon
 
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