Official 2020-21 NBA Finals - Milwaukee Bucks win the NBA Championship!

[RJKarl]

Damn, it's almost like playing defense is a team effort. You guys go ahead and take someone with a lower offensive ceiling that can play below-average to average individual defense. I'll take the best offensive talents I can and build my team in a way to make the defense work.

You completely missed the point. Even the worst defender will have good numbers playing on a team with four other star defenders.

Unless the Hawks can surround Trae with defenders like Houston did (which is VERY rare), Trae's defense will harm your team's outlook for success.

 

[deacon14]

You completely missed the point. Even the worst defender will have good numbers playing on a team with four other star defenders.

Unless the Hawks can surround Trae with defenders like Houston did (which is VERY rare), Trae's defense will harm your team's outlook for success.

No offense RJ but we've done this multiple times before where I bring up quantifiable things about Trae and you just keep harping on your eye test of his defense. I'm not really interested in doing it again with you.

I was mostly curious why other people like Townie chose other guys over Trae. 2&2's defense of the guy on his favorite team is a valid one, I haven't watched enough Hornets to dispute it. It's a bet on potential over current performance and that's fine.

 

[Pilchard]

FWIW, according to basketball reference here are the top 10 players in the NBA in the Win Shares category for this season who are 23 or younger:

1. Bam Adebayo (23) 3.2
2. Zion (20) 3.0
3. Jarret Allen (22) 3.0
4. Trae Young (22) 2.8
5. John Collins (23) 2.8
6. Mitchell Robinson (22) 2.8
7. Luka (21) 2.7
8. Brandon Ingraham (23) 2.4
9. DeAndre Ayton (22) 2.4
10. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (22) 2.4

LaMelo Ball is top teenager by far with 1.1 (73rd overall in the league). Ja Morant is way back at 0.7 (200 in the league), but he is partially penalized because he missed a bunch of games with an injury.

The top player in the NBA in Win Shares, and almost every other metric (value over replacement player, box +/-, offensive win shares) is Jokic. He can do it all. Oh, and he is 25.

 

[JuiceCrewAllStar]

these discussions make me sad to be a Bulls fan

 

[IAppreciateIt]

I thought that reddit unanimously saying that Derrick White was more valuable to a team than Trae about a year ago was as insane as it would get. I guess the new rock bottom is essentially equating Trae to Lou Williams.

i think it's tough to put together a cohesive starting lineup with trae as pg that is championship caliber i think it's easy to have a competitive team and get into the playoffs though. fwiw, i think that's true of a bunch of great players. i would love to see some lineups like that though, i really enjoy that type of thought exercise. i think i'm just personally biased against ball dominating players who are bad at defense, but i think it's at least somewhat backed up by history.

 

[RJKarl]

No offense RJ but we've done this multiple times before where I bring up quantifiable things about Trae and you just keep harping on your eye test of his defense. I'm not really interested in doing it again with you.

I was mostly curious why other people like Townie chose other guys over Trae. 2&2's defense of the guy on his favorite team is a valid one, I haven't watched enough Hornets to dispute it. It's a bet on potential over current performance and that's fine.

And I've shown why some "quantifying" numbers don't make any sense.

 

[PhDeac]

Ph,

I'm not saying you are wrong. The jury is out on all of those five, even Luka. Maybe, in ten years, Trae will have Iverson's career, plus a title, and the rest of that group will be just good, but not great players. I really respect that you aren't backing down from supporting Trae. No one knows for certain,who among that group will become "great" versus "good". It appears that to me that Trae will only be an elite scorer, but not able to lift his team to elite status, but it's early and that could be wrong.

Trae was Top 5 in scoring and assists last year. He's on a very short list of players who made the All-Star game in their second season. He's already past just "good."

Feel free to argue if he'll be "great" or win an MVP or if he'll lead a team to a championship or be the 2nd or 3rd player in a big 3. That's fine. But don't argue his peak is a sixth man. Don't argue that a player behind him who scored 12 fewer points last year will have a higher ceiling.

D14, you ready to donk up this thread for Spurs-Hawks tonight?

 

[RJKarl]

FWIW, according to basketball reference here are the top 10 players in the NBA in the Win Shares category for this season who are 23 or younger:

1. Bam Adebayo (23) 3.2
2. Zion (20) 3.0
3. Jarret Allen (22) 3.0
4. Trae Young (22) 2.8
5. John Collins (23) 2.8
6. Mitchell Robinson (22) 2.8
7. Luka (21) 2.7
8. Brandon Ingraham (23) 2.4
9. DeAndre Ayton (22) 2.4
10. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (22) 2.4

LaMelo Ball is top teenager by far with 1.1 (73rd overall in the league). Ja Morant is way back at 0.7 (200 in the league), but he is partially penalized because he missed a bunch of games with an injury.

The top player in the NBA in Win Shares, and almost every other metric (value over replacement player, box +/-, offensive win shares) is Jokic. He can do it all. Oh, and he is 25.

I love John Collins, but any "stat" that says he creates more (or as many) wins as Luka is FOS. To put Mitchell Robinson in the discussion show that formula is worthless.

 

[JuiceCrewAllStar]

Trae was Top 5 in scoring and assists last year. He's on a very short list of players who made the All-Star game in their second season. He's already past just "good."

Feel free to argue if he'll be "great" or win an MVP or if he'll lead a team to a championship or be the 2nd or 3rd player in a big 3. That's fine. But don't argue his peak is a sixth man. Don't argue that a player behind him who scored 12 fewer points last year will have a higher ceiling.

D14, you ready to donk up this thread for Spurs-Hawks tonight?

I don't think apetit is arguing his peak is a 6th Man

I think he's arguing that the only type of team with Trae that wins a championship is if Trae is the 6th Man

 

[Pilchard]

Not as worthless as RJ's opinion.

 

[RJKarl]

Not as worthless as RJ's opinion.

There you go making things personal when you can't defend your position.

In what possible world is Mitchell Robinson in the discussion of who helps creates as many or more wins for a team than Luka Doncic? To even think that is irrational.

 

[plama]

Hawks better move Trae to Power Forward if they want to keep him

 

[RJKarl]

Now, there's an idea...

 

[IAppreciateIt]

Trae was Top 5 in scoring and assists last year. He's on a very short list of players who made the All-Star game in their second season. He's already past just "good."

Feel free to argue if he'll be "great" or win an MVP or if he'll lead a team to a championship or be the 2nd or 3rd player in a big 3. That's fine. But don't argue his peak is a sixth man. Don't argue that a player behind him who scored 12 fewer points last year will have a higher ceiling.

D14, you ready to donk up this thread for Spurs-Hawks tonight?

this sounds ridiculous but i actually think trae might have a better chance of winning mvp than being a starter on a championship team (unless he ends up playing w/ lebron)

 

[DeaconSig]

Of that group I would put Luka first and Zion last. I guess LaMelo 4th, and flip a coin for Ja and Trae.

I really don't see Zion as a generational talent. I can't imagine a set up where he is the best player (maybe even the 2nd best) on a championship team.

Overall, the gap between Luka and the other 4 is like twice as big as the gap between any of the rest of them.

 

[RJKarl]

Of that group I would put Luka first and Zion last. I guess LaMelo 4th, and flip a coin for Ja and Trae.

I really don't see Zion as a generational talent. I can't imagine a set up where he is the best player (maybe even the 2nd best) on a championship team.

Overall, the gap between Luka and the other 4 is like twice as big as the gap between any of the rest of them.

I can absolutely see Ja on a championship team. He really understands the game. I want to see LaMelo play a couple of years, but he could be there as well.

 

[PhDeac]

I don't think apetit is arguing his peak is a 6th Man

I think he's arguing that the only type of team with Trae that wins a championship is if Trae is the 6th Man

Yeah. That's what I was talking about. Sorry it wasn't clear that I was making a contrast between Trae winning a championship as a sixth man or "if he'll lead a team to a championship or be the 2nd or 3rd player in a big 3."

this sounds ridiculous but i actually think trae might have a better chance of winning mvp than being a starter on a championship team (unless he ends up playing w/ lebron)

It doesn't sound ridiculous. Trae's trajectory is similar to Steph and Harden. Steph got his first MVP right before getting his first championship. Harden has his MVP and obviously doesn't have a championship.

I wouldn't say Trae is a lock for an MVP in his career because there are so many legit scorers age 25 and under. He certainly has a good chance though. He's already putting up MVP type points and assists. He just percentages and team accomplishments.

 

[TownieDeac]

No offense RJ but we've done this multiple times before where I bring up quantifiable things about Trae and you just keep harping on your eye test of his defense. I'm not really interested in doing it again with you.

I was mostly curious why other people like Townie chose other guys over Trae. 2&2's defense of the guy on his favorite team is a valid one, I haven't watched enough Hornets to dispute it. It's a bet on potential over current performance and that's fine.

as i said i didn't look at numbers, just went by my gut

 

[deacon14]

this sounds ridiculous but i actually think trae might have a better chance of winning mvp than being a starter on a championship team (unless he ends up playing w/ lebron)

Yeah, thanks for clarifying, I understand better what you meant now. I obviously disagree but it's a reasonable opinion.

 

[deacon14]

D14, you ready to donk up this thread for Spurs-Hawks tonight?

Lol I won't be able to watch tonight but I'll be sure to come in later and fire off some hot takes about the overvaluation of PG defense or the fairness of Trae's foul baiting to make up for it