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Pope Francis Basically Just Admitted There May Not Be a God

Do you have a good article to read more about this?

I don't know if there is one article that draws all of those connections together. But of the independent topics, which are you more interested in: the history of the interpretation of the chronology of creation, the link between dispensational theology/eschatology and a 7 day creation, or a history of the divide of of Science and Faith (which is part history and part the ascendancy of Reason as a religious philosophy over and above - "does this make logical sense")?

I'll try to track down something for you.
 
Call me crazy, but the central tenet of faith in Christianity is that JC, divine son of God, died for your sins and was resurrected on 3rd day.

And you are missing the point on evolution. He isn't saying that God chose evolution as form of creation. He is saying that God isn't magician with magic wand. IOW, God's power has limits. That is a remarkable statement.

I don't interpret his statement that way at all. I interpret him to mean that God created through the means of the Big Bang and evolution because God chose those means. It would be odd to conceive of a God who could direct the Big Bang, form the planets, breathe life into things, and guide the appearance of the human species but couldn't stop the sun and moon from operating according to the rules he wrote if he wanted to.
 
An article where some claim to be in the religion but view Resurrection as metaphorical. Really? Isn't that the primary basis of the religion?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...715c0a-c6fa-11e3-8b9a-8e0977a24aeb_story.html

There have been many theologians, all who would self identify as "Christian," who hold that the resurrection is the central tenet of Christianity but did not occur as a literal event. This belief has been around in academic circles for well over 100 years. There was an entire school of German theologians in the mid 1800s who thought this way. Neo-orthodox theologians fought against this view in 1920s through the end of WWII, but it is prevalent among academics, both continental and american, today.
 
Call me crazy, but the central tenet of faith in Christianity is that JC, divine son of God, died for your sins and was resurrected on 3rd day.

And you are missing the point on evolution. He isn't saying that God chose evolution as form of creation. He is saying that God isn't magician with magic wand. IOW, God's power has limits. That is a remarkable statement.

I don't see it that way at all. One of the whole concepts of the Bible is that God set the wheels in motion, but then (for the most part) took a hands-off approach. I think the Pope means that the same concept that applies to letting free will and its consequences play out also applies to letting evolution and its consequences play out.

For what it's worth, I don't see these comments as strange at all coming from the Pope. I had 12 years of Catholic school that taught the interplay of evolution, science, and Catholicism pretty well, and that was 20-30 years ago. We had one class in high school that focused solely on the potential scientific explanation for Bible stories (locusts, floods, parting of the Red Sea, etc). As someone with a relatively religious childhood education, that was one reason why when I got to Wake and saw all of those hardcore IV Bible Study meetings I was like you guys are whacked.
 
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Many Roman Catholics and many Jews believe The Bible is an allegory.

Few believe the entire Bible is an allegory. It's one bound book made up of many stories, writings, letter, etc from many writers. There are poems, there are allegorical stories, there are narrative and historical texts, there are proverbs, there are letters. I have a hard time believing anyone reads an extended genealogy and thinks it's meant to be an allegory. Then again, I have a hard time believing anyone reads the entire Bible and assumes something like Song of Solomon or Revelation to be literal, but people do.

Sorry for the string of quotes, but I hope to offer a little clarity to these statements. Where I think rj is getting confused with more prominent understandings of Scripture (not meaning to discount any personal interactions with Catholics who view all of Scripture as allegory) is surrounding the dominant mode of exegeting Scripture that existed from the Middle Ages through the Reformation (and lingered beyond). Medieval scholars read all Scripture through 4 lenses, maintaining that each passage would carry each sense of meaning: Literal, Allagorical, Analogical, and Anagogical.

Literal (and here is where there is some confusion between modern literalist readers and the reformers) meant the meaning of a passage to its first intended audience (how that writer of the passage intended it to be read) - not that things that were originally metaphor or symbolic should be taken literally. Thus, there is a good bit of symbolism, parable, and metaphor in Scripture, but at the same time, it is not wholly so.

Allagorical- from at least Origen, many used this as the primary mode of interpretation, that the true meaning of the passage is hidden in surface text, treating all of Scripture similar to a parable

Anagogical - the "spiritual" sense of Scripture. How all events in Scripture point toward its eternal significance

Analogical - the "moral" interpretation of Scripture - how each passage informs our ethic.

I think dividing interpretation into this spheres and imposing it on the text is flawed, but it has persisted for centuries. One major flow is that it takes the inherent Jewish-narratival out of the equation and i believe that Scripture can best be understood within the narrative framework.

But to the point here - I think there is some confusion about Catholics reading Scripture in the Allagorical sense and taking all Scripture allogorically.

For those interested, an amazing resource that isn't too long and pretty accessible that covers the history of interpretation, how the church has read Scripture and what is meant by word of God and its authority is "Scripture and the Authority of God" by N. T. Wright.
 
It's easy. God created the universe that would unfold into its present state. He's omniscient and all powerful and he had it all scheduled and organized at time zero for the earth to form and life to arise and evolution to produce humans.
 
From Paul in 1 Corinthians:

And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Verses like these are what cause theologians to conclude the resurrection is the central tenet of Christianity. Note, however, that Paul does not say "if Christ has not been raised *in a literal sense,* then our preaching is in vain." Just as it is anachronistic to think the authors of the Genesis story were doing "science," modern theologians think it is anachronistic to assume Paul was thinking in concepts like literalism vs metaphor.
 
"Cognitive Dissonance" tag says it all for what is on display in this thread.

From a cognitive standpoint, I can only talk about my own experience, but that experience has been that the only time I've been in internal dissonance was when I was an atheist.
 
I don't see it that way at all. One of the whole concepts of the Bible is that God set the wheels in motion, but then (for the most part) took a hands-off approach. I think the Pope means that the same concept that applies to letting free will and its consequences play out also applies to letting evolution and its consequences play out.

Really, because the Bible contains multitudes of stories where God either directly intervened in human life or intervened through conduits in divine manifestations of his existence.

From a logical standpoint, I can at least see Wrangor. He believes it whole hog.

But this idea that God is divine, all of the divine stories in the Bible are metaphors yet I am a Christian makes no sense to me at all.
 
And to take out a historical understanding of the resurrection is impose a post-enlightenment understanding of the text. To assert that any of the apostles, their disciples, of any of the 1st or 2nd generation church fathers understood the resurrection in any sense other than a physical resurrection within time Jesus is has dubious merit.
 
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It's easy. God created the universe that would unfold into its present state. He's omniscient and all powerful and he had it all scheduled and organized at time zero for the earth to form and life to arise and evolution to produce humans.

But he/she showed that he knew what mess he was starting....he invented pot, tequila and the platypus.
 
And to take out a historical understanding of the resurrection is impose a post-enlightenment understanding of the text. To assert that any of the apostles, their disciples, of any of the 1st or 2nd generation church fathers understood the resurrection in any sense other than a physical resurrection within time of Jesus is has dubious merit.

I don't think I disagree with you. But the fact that they wouldn't have had categories to understand non-literal events doesn't mean either that they were wrong or that the events literally happened. It's the exact same thing with the authors of Genesis. Or are you going to argue that Genesis shouldn't be understood literally but the Gospels should? If so, how do you account for things like biblical accounts of miracles performed by those outside of the Christian community? Did people back then have more powers than we do now? Isn't it more reasonable to think that all of the stories of miracles, etc., are the product of a pre-scientific mind rather than saying some miracles = true and some miracles = false?
 
Really, because the Bible contains multitudes of stories where God either directly intervened in human life or intervened through conduits in divine manifestations of his existence.

From a logical standpoint, I can at least see Wrangor. He believes it whole hog.

But this idea that God is divine, all of the divine stories in the Bible are metaphors yet I am a Christian makes no sense to me at all.

Why not? It is pretty easy to understand. But if you don't want to believe in it, then don't believe in it; it doesn't matter to me whether you do or not.
 
One of the whole concepts of the Bible is that God set the wheels in motion, but then (for the most part) took a hands-off approach..

I don't think that's a concept of the Bible at all. It's quite the opposite. The entire story of the Bible is one of constant working towards renewal in all of creation.
 
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Why not? It is pretty easy to understand. But if you don't want to believe in it, then don't believe in it; it doesn't matter to me whether you do or not.

OK, the conclusion that it makes no sense but it is what I believe is one you can make.
 
From a cognitive standpoint, I can only talk about my own experience, but that experience has been that the only time I've been in internal dissonance was when I was an atheist.

what made you change your mind?
 
From a cognitive standpoint, I can only talk about my own experience, but that experience has been that the only time I've been in internal dissonance was when I was an atheist.

Few people are truly atheist. I think a larger segment of the younger posters are just not dogmatic in general, so it is amusing to watch the mental gymnastics of the religious when it comes to their a la carte selection of what is an incontrovertible truth and what isn't. I'd love it if all of you just came forward and said that it was your decision to seek self-improvement through your own personal interpretation of the Bible as a work of literature and that you don't expect this interpretation to be afforded any more special treatment than someone who decides to live by the lessons of the Hunger Games franchise.
 
A) define "literally" when discussing the text, especially Genesis. In the classic sense of literal - the understanding with which the author intended - yes, I would say so - we should treat each within the narratival structure of all Scripture. There are differences in how those two books are written, in respects to structure, purpose, and worldview of the intended audience among others and so when investigating them, one must do so differently, but not as two independent and unconnected pieces.

B) if you are going to ascribe the resurrection to a pre-scientific mind, you both discredit the intellectual capacity of those in the 1st century and fail to account for what we observe happening in the aftermath of the event. Was it delusion? It would be a pretty unprecedented delusion considering most Hebraic thought at the time would assume that the messiah wouldn't die, and even if he did, their understanding of resurrection was at the end of time, not within it.

As for miracles outside of followers of Jesus - Jesus addresses that in Mark - that miracles done in concert with Kingdom of God are good, regardless if they are "inside" the faith or "outside." Some of the conflict falls away when you understand the mission of God as restoring the world to the way it should be rather than simply gathering followers.
 
Few people are truly atheist. I think a larger segment of the younger posters are just not dogmatic in general, so it is amusing to watch the mental gymnastics of the religious when it comes to their a la carte selection of what is an incontrovertible truth and what isn't. I'd love it if all of you just came forward and said that it was your decision to seek self-improvement through your own personal interpretation of the Bible as a work of literature and that you don't expect this interpretation to be afforded any more special treatment than someone who decides to live by the lessons of the Hunger Games franchise.

Nihilism has always been the path of least resistance. The millennials haven't come up with anything new there. It's great; you don't ever have to be bound to anything or anyone and you can never fail because there is nothing external by which you can be judged. The only problem is that you never actually learn to live.
 
Nihilism has always been the path of least resistance. The millennials haven't come up with anything new there. It's great; you don't ever have to be bound to anything or anyone and you can never fail because there is nothing external by which you can be judged. The only problem is that you never actually learn to live.

huh?
 
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