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Prominent Libertarian Charles Murray Changes His Mind on Low-Skill Immigration

Seems like you need to blame Disney.

yeah, disney and the guy who waited around assuming he was more valuable than he was

or maybe the Congress, which heard the dude's testimony, has access to millions of pages of data on immigration, access to the best demographic data in the history of the world, and has limitless power to address these issues, and has done precisely dick since Reagan's amnesty to reform the system.
 
did the government make Disney do this to this poor unfortunate soul (eh? ehhhh???)

no, Disney is trying to ruin america. THANKS disney

I was getting ready to apologize but your lack of empathy and love for your fellow Americans disgusts me. I love this country and it's people. I'm a patriot. You fucks with your "Meh, who gives a fuck, as long as I gots mines" attitude are destroying this country. But I will still apologize because I love this country and it's citizens. But just so you know, I'm not sure I entirely mean this apology.
 
I definitely think 923 and his ilk are enemies of the American people. They are the enemy within.
 
But as a patriot you must understand why people all over the world want to experience the greatness that is the US economy.
 
But as a patriot you must understand why people all over the world want to experience the greatness that is the US economy.

Of course I do. But unless they can serve as a benefit and not a drain, the door needs to be closed to immigration. Only those with skills or knowledge that are truly in demand should be allowed. No more low skilled immigration with possibly a few rare exceptions.
 
Of course I do. But unless they can serve as a benefit and not a drain, the door needs to be closed to immigration. Only those with skills or knowledge that are truly in demand should be allowed. No more low skilled immigration with possibly a few rare exceptions.

So like, the guys Disney hired?
 
I was getting ready to apologize but your lack of empathy and love for your fellow Americans disgusts me. I love this country and it's people. I'm a patriot. You fucks with your "Meh, who gives a fuck, as long as I gots mines" attitude are destroying this country. But I will still apologize because I love this country and it's citizens. But just so you know, I'm not sure I entirely mean this apology.

i mean, Disney is the one trying o save money here. not sure why you're blaming the visa program
 
or maybe the Congress, which heard the dude's testimony, has access to millions of pages of data on immigration, access to the best demographic data in the history of the world, and has limitless power to address these issues, and has done precisely dick since Reagan's amnesty to reform the system.

Thanks 923, but you have to realize no matter what I say or how many sources I use to show townie is mistaken. It is irrelevant.

He states that H-1B visas HELP wages. Then I show him multiple sources (from both sides of political voices) that H-1B Visas deflate STEM wages and he goes snarky rather than being honest.

He has truly become PH, JR. Every time he is proven wrong he changes the subject so as not to have to admit he is mistaken.

923, but thanks for showing reason.
 
I was getting ready to apologize but your lack of empathy and love for your fellow Americans disgusts me. I love this country and it's people. I'm a patriot. You fucks with your "Meh, who gives a fuck, as long as I gots mines" attitude are destroying this country. But I will still apologize because I love this country and it's citizens. But just so you know, I'm not sure I entirely mean this apology.

America is a nation of winners, bob. not whiny crybaby losers like that putz in the video. If he doesn't like it, he should've voted for different representatives in congress, who had the wisdom to allow america's great businesses to leverage smart people from all nations. We want the best people, not crybabies.

Patton knew what was up.

6345248761_07affd396e_b.jpg
 
So like, the guys Disney hired?

Guess you don't see the part where I say "truly in demand". It can't be used to lower wages or replace American workers. I've posted before on the number of STEM graduates we're turning out. And yet there are companies in Silicon Valley where the workforce is almost entirely immigrant. Some of the statistics are pretty shocking. I'll have to look them up later and re-post them. I started a thread on tech workers and H-1B visas a year or so ago.
 
Thanks 923, but you have to realize no matter what I say or how many sources I use to show townie is mistaken. It is irrelevant.

He states that H-1B visas HELP wages. Then I show him multiple sources (from both sides of political voices) that H-1B Visas deflate STEM wages and he goes snarky rather than being honest.

He has truly become PH, JR. Every time he is proven wrong he changes the subject so as not to have to admit he is mistaken.

923, but thanks for showing reason.


From what I can tell, the research findings are mixed, and very field-specific. In aggregate though, the following is true:

From the creation of the H-1B program in 1990 to 2010, H-1B-driven increases in STEM workers were associated with a significant increase in wages for college-educated, U.S.-born workers in 219 U.S. cities. A one percentage point increase in foreign STEM workers’ share of a city’s total employment was associated with increases in wages of 7 to 8 percentage points paid to both STEM and non-STEM college-educated natives, while non-college educated workers saw an increase of 3 to 4 percentage points.
From 2009 to 2011, wage growth for U.S.-born workers with at least a bachelor’s degree was nominal, but wage growth for workers in occupations with large numbers of H-1B petitions was substantially higher. For example, in the Computer Systems Design and Related Services category, there has been a 5.5 percent wage growth since 1990 and a 7 percent wage growth since 2009. In comparison, wage growth across all industries has been 0.8 percent since 1990 and 1.6 percent since 2009.
On average, H-1B workers earn higher wages than employed U.S.-born workers with bachelor’s degrees: $76,356 compared to $67,301, including in areas like computer and information technology, engineering, healthcare, and post-secondary education. When comparing workers of the same age cohort and occupation, H-1B workers earn higher wages than their native-born counterparts. Specifically, in 17 out of 20 age cohort and occupation groups, wages for H-1B workers are higher than non-H-1B workers.
Factors such as gender, marital status, and ethnicity play a larger role than citizenship or immigration status for wages in the tech and finance industries—industries that use a large number of H-1B visas. A worker’s geographic region also accounts for significant differences in wages.
 
I'd like to know what Bob2 has done to better this great country of ours. As much shit as Bob1 gets at least he has served in public office and practices what he preaches, even if a lot people don't agree with him.
 
680k is still just over 0.01% of the workforce though.

It's also dumb thing to zero in on because H1B workers don't deflate wages nearly as much as low skill workers do. It costs employers roughly the same to employ foreign workers in high skill jobs now as domestic workers.

Most data also suggests that

Still, I appreciate your approach to this a lot more than bobstackfan's, which is to say attempts to address points with facts.

Notwithstanding the points that were already followed up on by RJ of all people about apples to apples being applicable here, I would add that common sense just doesn't bear out that survey's conclusions. I mean, yeah, you can do things like jack up fees or even jack up the minimum salary requirements for an H1B visa and that will have some effect, but the H1B cap isn't hit in a week every year because foreign workers are just as expensive to hire as U.S workers. Plus, as has been pointed out, they are skirting the regulations by paying entry level dudes to do the jobs of people with 5 or more years of experience. They don't put that in the labor certifications, I can guarantee you that. Now we can say that's a reflection of the quality of education IT guys are getting here (which is often a series of certifications on top of an unrelated bach or assoc degree) or the plethora of engineering degrees in India, but it doesn't matter.
 
I'm enjoying these pro-labor arguments, especially from ELC. Gotta go home now though. Thanks especially to ELC and 923 for good conversation.
 
I'd like to know what Bob2 has done to better this great country of ours. As much shit as Bob1 gets at least he has served in public office and practices what he preaches, even if a lot people don't agree with him.

Don't you worry about it. I've done stuff. When I go to the city I give the homeless people $20. They're kind of a novelty as I don't see people like that usually. I don't even care what they do with the money. I mainly help dogs though. I want to make our animals great again too.
 
I'm enjoying these pro-labor arguments, especially from ELC. Gotta go home now though. Thanks especially to ELC and 923 for good conversation.
I know you said this to try and set me off. Not gonna work. I'm like my sensei Trump, a master of my emotions.
 
From what I can tell, the research findings are mixed, and very field-specific. In aggregate though, the following is true:

That's not what any of the articles I sent you showed. It's not what the Congressional record shows.

Here are some more:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article81676692.html

http://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-program/

http://www.programmersguild.org/archives/howtounderpay.htm

https://organizationsandsocialchang...ch-jobs-turn-all-indian-the-h1b-visa-dilemma/

http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html

There are hundreds more like this versus your one. I've shown the lowering of income in a wide swath of industries.

HINT, when you get ELC and I to agree on anything (other than going out to have drinks), you might think twice about your position.
 
I was recently over in Japan. They are doing quite fine for themselves despite the doomsday predictions by the West. The only Africans I saw over there were Nigerians that try to strong arm you into brothels.
 
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