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Report: Kavanaugh won’t commit to recusal from Trump/Mueller related matters

Why do you have the last paragraph in quotes?

And Wranfor, lectro has already said he doesn’t care if Judge Kavenaugh did it. He still wants him on the Supreme Court. How about you?
 
Glad Wrangor, Esq. graced us with his legal expertise. This isn't a criminal case. If it were, he said, she said situations are incredibly common, even for recent allegations. They still proceed. Whether or not Kavanaugh would ultimately be convicted in a criminal case is irrelevant to whether a) he actually did it and b) whether or not his career should be affected as a result.

Everytime Wrangor posts here, he rips the board for logic having been thrown out the window, and then Lectro follows him up making the same point. Wrangor, stop posting here if you don't like it.

Why rush the process through, Wrangor? Why are they hiding documents? Why has Kavanaugh lied? Kavanaugh was all gung ho about investing Clinton back in the day, why should he not be similarly investigated when being nominated for a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court?
 
She can’t say anything for sure about that night. She doesn’t even know how she got there, how she got home. She can’t be sure about who was there. I don’t doubt something happened, but best case scenario is that this is a he said she said situation. That isn’t credible to run in someone’s career.

What evidence do you speak of? Her saying he might have done something 36 years ago that is corroborated by zero witnesses who can even name the Party, the attendees, or the act?

I am not saying the woman wasn’t intimidated or didn’t experience an attempted assault. I am saying that there is no way to prove who did it, and that this is a clear tool being used by the Democrats to delay the process through the mid terms.

If an investigating agency took this case the only evidence they would have would be testimony. It would be he said / she said. There is no physical evidence to investigate. Even if they could could place Kavanaugh at the alleged party, they could never put him in a room because his testimony is just as valid as hers. Even if they could somehow put him in the room, they could not determine that he committed a crime. Even in the unlikely case that you have additional testimonies, he would have testimonies (and already has some) that deny the claims.

This is all for public perception and it is unfortunate imo. I am saying it is not right to ruin a persons career when there are unprovable accusations in which the accuser pretty much admits they can’t remember the situation at all and there is no physical evidence to support the claim.

Maybe he did this, maybe he didn’t. An unprovable accusation that does not show a pattern in his career shouldn’t convince anyone looking at this logically. In order to accept the premise that Kavanaugh committed this act you are required to take dozens of complete assumptions as absolute fact. That is a terrible precedent to establish in my opinion.

Just own up that this Kavanaugh is the victim of swift boating and move on. I don’t post here because logic is often thrown out the window in the face of political expediency, but this scenario is just too much. It’s like reverso-tea party logic of defending Trump’s terrible actions for his entire life with massive leaps and assumptions. Look at the real evidence. In this case it doesn’t add up and I think the vast majority of you know it.

You are basically talking about probabilities that her story is true or a better term might be accurate because we don’t have and won’t have any hard evidence. You think there is a low probability that the story is accurate, but how low is acceptable. What if there is a 10% chance that her story is accurate, is it cool with you that there is 10% chance that we are about give a sexual assaulter a life time seat on the SCOTUS? Is that a risk worth taking? If it is truely “he said she said” then the probabilities are closer to 50/50, right? Grossman has pointed out that her telling people years before his nomination and taking a lie detector raise the probabilities even higher that the story is accurate. As you point out 34 years of apparent good behavior might lower the probability that her story is accurate. Yeah, it’s possible she is remembering it wrong, maybe she has the wrong guy seared into her memory, but are we really willing to risk it on a life time appointment. I’m not. Pubs should withdraw the nomination and jam trough some other ultra prolife 50 something white dude before the November election.

(Btw, it’s not ruining his career, the man still has a lifetime appointment as a federal judge, he’ll be fine.)
 
I Believe Her: When I was in high school, I faced my own Brett Kavanaugh.


...But if Ford’s story is true, Brett Kavanaugh never apologized. He never tried to make amends, never took responsibility for what he did. In my case, the near-rape—as awful as it was at the time and in its immediate aftermath—didn’t cause any lasting damage. But by Ford’s account, Kavanaugh’s acts did cause lasting damage, and he has done nothing at all to try to make that right. And that is why the mistake of a 17-year-old kid still matters. The least we should do is put this confirmation on hold until we can learn more about what happened. If it’s not true, Kavanaugh should be confirmed without a cloud of suspicion. If it is true, we’ll have to decide whether you get to attack a girl, show no remorse, and eventually become a Supreme Court justice. My own inclination is: No.
 
Good reading there.


The writer of the piece says she believes (not the same thing as knowing for certain) the professor is telling the truth.

And she’s contrasting Kavanaugh with her own would be rapist.


With the explicit qualification, “if” Ford’s story is true.


She also discusses “if” it’s not.


And seems to advocate a careful and thorough assessment.




Pretty sure she never indicates anyone should apologize for something they didn’t do.
 
And if he did it, which seems plausible, the time for his apology is long past.
 
Exactly. These guys are a dime a dozen. They can find one with a transparent record who hasn’t tried to rape anybody. At least there was kind of an excuse with Clarence Thomas because they wanted a black conservative judge.

According to the White House lawyer, if you start dredging up the past, you'll find sexual assault in the history of all men.
 
If people are worried the allegations aren’t credible, then why aren’t you fine with an FBI investigation?

According to the White House lawyer, if you start dredging up the past, you'll find sexual assault in the history of all men.

Ok. Then nominate a woman. There’s some super conservative woman they seem to like or the Wake grad.
 
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Why do you have the last paragraph in quotes?

And Wranfor, lectro has already said he doesn’t care if Judge Kavenaugh did it. He still wants him on the Supreme Court. How about you?

You know exactly what I am saying you little liar —

You Dems don’t give a krap about “Truth”
 
She can’t say anything for sure about that night. She doesn’t even know how she got there, how she got home. She can’t be sure about who was there. I don’t doubt something happened, but best case scenario is that this is a he said she said situation. That isn’t credible to run in someone’s career.

What evidence do you speak of? Her saying he might have done something 36 years ago that is corroborated by zero witnesses who can even name the Party, the attendees, or the act?

I am not saying the woman wasn’t intimidated or didn’t experience an attempted assault. I am saying that there is no way to prove who did it, and that this is a clear tool being used by the Democrats to delay the process through the mid terms.

If an investigating agency took this case the only evidence they would have would be testimony. It would be he said / she said. There is no physical evidence to investigate. Even if they could could place Kavanaugh at the alleged party, they could never put him in a room because his testimony is just as valid as hers. Even if they could somehow put him in the room, they could not determine that he committed a crime. Even in the unlikely case that you have additional testimonies, he would have testimonies (and already has some) that deny the claims.

This is all for public perception and it is unfortunate imo. I am saying it is not right to ruin a persons career when there are unprovable accusations in which the accuser pretty much admits they can’t remember the situation at all and there is no physical evidence to support the claim.

Maybe he did this, maybe he didn’t. An unprovable accusation that does not show a pattern in his career shouldn’t convince anyone looking at this logically. In order to accept the premise that Kavanaugh committed this act you are required to take dozens of complete assumptions as absolute fact. That is a terrible precedent to establish in my opinion.

Just own up that this Kavanaugh is the victim of swift boating and move on. I don’t post here because logic is often thrown out the window in the face of political expediency, but this scenario is just too much. It’s like reverso-tea party logic of defending Trump’s terrible actions for his entire life with massive leaps and assumptions. Look at the real evidence. In this case it doesn’t add up and I think the vast majority of you know it.

A lot to unpack here.

First, I think she's been very clear about who was in the room as she identified both people and what Kavanaugh tried to do. She is, admittedly, fuzzy on other details. So, identity is not an issue.

Next, as someone who solely prosecuted sex crimes for three years, I can tell you the large majority of rape cases involve known assailants that are virtually "he said/she said" cases with little more evidence. That is why so many rape victims refuse to come forward, or take years to muster up the courage to do so. Because they know, deep down, without more there will always be people saying accusing them of lying. Their word is not good enough.

Her evidence is her saying in so many words that Kavanaugh attempted to rape her six years ago when she was talking to a psychiatrist at marriage counseling. Why was she at marriage counseling? Because apparently this incident has effected her emotionally to the point that it was harming her marriage. Why would she bring this up during counseling? Was she lying? Was this part of her long con to take down Kavanaugh? I doubt it.

Next, you say there's no way to prove he did it. First, as others have said, this isn't a criminal trial. So, proof isn't necessary here. Admittedly, Democrats are capitalizing on this allegation. Does that make the allegation any less true? Does that mean this man is deserving of a job only 120 people in the history of this country have held? Or, as I said earlier, perhaps there's another conservative Harvard grad who didn't drunkenly try and rape someone who should have the job. The fact of the matter is, if this girl came home that night and told her parents...they would've probably gone straight to the police (as I'm sure you would do if you have a daughter and she told you. I hope you wouldn't tell her, Sorry...there's no way to prove what you're saying is true. It's just he said/she said). If this report to the police happened, we're never having this discussion. Kavanaugh would never have been considered, and rightly so. I'm sure he still would've gone on to be a very successful lawyer. But, to be a Supreme Court Justice, attempted rape shouldn't be on your resume.

You keep saying it's an unprovable accusation because it's he said/she said. First, that's not true. Cases are proven all the time based upon the testimony of the witnesses and who a jury finds more credible. Secondly, again, this isn't a criminal proceeding. It's a job interview.

Your swiftboating accusation is absurd. Again, she already talked about this incident before she had a motive AND she passed a lie detector test (which I can tell you, unless you're trained or a sociopath, are incredibly reliable). So, there is much more meat to these accusations than you care to admit. Sure, the dems are using this for political fodder. But, make no mistake what conservatives like yourself and Republicans are doing - it is the same thing they did when they voted for Trump - they are selling their soul for the glimmer of hope of getting Roe v. Wade overturned. The truth is, even if Kavanaugh came out tomorrow and said the accusations are true...I was a drunk 17 year old kid and I'm sorry. They would still rush to put him on the highest court in the land just to get "their guy" appointed.

Personally, I think Trump should withdraw his nomination and immediately nominate whoever is no. 2 on his list. Assuming there's nothing like this in his/her past, all the people on the short list were qualified and they will be confirmed before Jan 1. It's the right thing to do, and the Pubs still get their fifth conservative on the bench.
 
Is there anyone who thought Kavanaugh wasn't utterly lacking in probity before this accusation? This man lied about using stolen Senate documents, lied about baseball season tickets, and lied about Trump's running a thorough vetting process. He's serially and seriously dishonest.
 
Is there anyone who thought Kavanaugh wasn't utterly lacking in probity before this accusation? This man lied about using stolen Senate documents, lied about baseball season tickets, and lied about Trump's running a thorough vetting process. He's serially and seriously dishonest.

Literally lied in his first words after being announced as the nominee - a stupid, silly, unnecessary lie just to flatter the man who nominated him.
 
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Les Grossman again.
 
You are such a ridiculous hack. What you could have asked is “when will the perfunctory sex allegation be hurled by Dems?”

But you don’t really care and you know I don’t either. So, Fuck You, You Too, Me Too and all the other hyped up horsehit — the True Crucible of our age but illiterates from 2nd rate institutions are not taught observation.

So I don’t care if he jammed a broomstick up this witch’s ass and taught her to fly.. he is A Supreme Court Judge.

You know exactly what I am saying you little liar —

You Dems don’t give a krap about “Truth”

*

This is your bedmate, Wrangor.
 
A lot to unpack here.

First, I think she's been very clear about who was in the room as she identified both people and what Kavanaugh tried to do. She is, admittedly, fuzzy on other details. So, identity is not an issue.

Next, as someone who solely prosecuted sex crimes for three years, I can tell you the large majority of rape cases involve known assailants that are virtually "he said/she said" cases with little more evidence. That is why so many rape victims refuse to come forward, or take years to muster up the courage to do so. Because they know, deep down, without more there will always be people saying accusing them of lying. Their word is not good enough.

Her evidence is her saying in so many words that Kavanaugh attempted to rape her six years ago when she was talking to a psychiatrist at marriage counseling. Why was she at marriage counseling? Because apparently this incident has effected her emotionally to the point that it was harming her marriage. Why would she bring this up during counseling? Was she lying? Was this part of her long con to take down Kavanaugh? I doubt it.

Next, you say there's no way to prove he did it. First, as others have said, this isn't a criminal trial. So, proof isn't necessary here. Admittedly, Democrats are capitalizing on this allegation. Does that make the allegation any less true? Does that mean this man is deserving of a job only 120 people in the history of this country have held? Or, as I said earlier, perhaps there's another conservative Harvard grad who didn't drunkenly try and rape someone who should have the job. The fact of the matter is, if this girl came home that night and told her parents...they would've probably gone straight to the police (as I'm sure you would do if you have a daughter and she told you. I hope you wouldn't tell her, Sorry...there's no way to prove what you're saying is true. It's just he said/she said). If this report to the police happened, we're never having this discussion. Kavanaugh would never have been considered, and rightly so. I'm sure he still would've gone on to be a very successful lawyer. But, to be a Supreme Court Justice, attempted rape shouldn't be on your resume.

You keep saying it's an unprovable accusation because it's he said/she said. First, that's not true. Cases are proven all the time based upon the testimony of the witnesses and who a jury finds more credible. Secondly, again, this isn't a criminal proceeding. It's a job interview.

Your swiftboating accusation is absurd. Again, she already talked about this incident before she had a motive AND she passed a lie detector test (which I can tell you, unless you're trained or a sociopath, are incredibly reliable). So, there is much more meat to these accusations than you care to admit. Sure, the dems are using this for political fodder. But, make no mistake what conservatives like yourself and Republicans are doing - it is the same thing they did when they voted for Trump - they are selling their soul for the glimmer of hope of getting Roe v. Wade overturned. The truth is, even if Kavanaugh came out tomorrow and said the accusations are true...I was a drunk 17 year old kid and I'm sorry. They would still rush to put him on the highest court in the land just to get "their guy" appointed.

Personally, I think Trump should withdraw his nomination and immediately nominate whoever is no. 2 on his list. Assuming there's nothing like this in his/her past, all the people on the short list were qualified and they will be confirmed before Jan 1. It's the right thing to do, and the Pubs still get their fifth conservative on the bench.

Wrangor, you’re quick to throw out the “this board doesn’t think logically” line in a lot of your Tunnels posts, but this post is solidly logical. Curious to your response.

For me, whether or not the allegations are true, the fact that they’re there and were broght up to her therapist years ago tell me there’s got be someone better. Why won’t Grassley let the therapist testify? On top of that, as others have said, he was caught in several lies in his hearing. That alone, and the lack of transparency (releasing all his documents) should disqualify him. Just go to number two on the list.
 
Literally lied in his first words after being announced as the nominee - a stupid, silly, unnecessary lie just to flatter the man who nominated him.

The immediate lies somehow bind the nominee to Trump since they undermine the speaker's own independent credibility. He's demanded them of Spicer, Ross, Kavanaugh, and probably others. It's disturbing. I unironically think Trump has a demon
 
A lot to unpack here.

First, I think she's been very clear about who was in the room as she identified both people and what Kavanaugh tried to do. She is, admittedly, fuzzy on other details. So, identity is not an issue.

Next, as someone who solely prosecuted sex crimes for three years, I can tell you the large majority of rape cases involve known assailants that are virtually "he said/she said" cases with little more evidence. That is why so many rape victims refuse to come forward, or take years to muster up the courage to do so. Because they know, deep down, without more there will always be people saying accusing them of lying. Their word is not good enough.

Her evidence is her saying in so many words that Kavanaugh attempted to rape her six years ago when she was talking to a psychiatrist at marriage counseling. Why was she at marriage counseling? Because apparently this incident has effected her emotionally to the point that it was harming her marriage. Why would she bring this up during counseling? Was she lying? Was this part of her long con to take down Kavanaugh? I doubt it.

Next, you say there's no way to prove he did it. First, as others have said, this isn't a criminal trial. So, proof isn't necessary here. Admittedly, Democrats are capitalizing on this allegation. Does that make the allegation any less true? Does that mean this man is deserving of a job only 120 people in the history of this country have held? Or, as I said earlier, perhaps there's another conservative Harvard grad who didn't drunkenly try and rape someone who should have the job. The fact of the matter is, if this girl came home that night and told her parents...they would've probably gone straight to the police (as I'm sure you would do if you have a daughter and she told you. I hope you wouldn't tell her, Sorry...there's no way to prove what you're saying is true. It's just he said/she said). If this report to the police happened, we're never having this discussion. Kavanaugh would never have been considered, and rightly so. I'm sure he still would've gone on to be a very successful lawyer. But, to be a Supreme Court Justice, attempted rape shouldn't be on your resume.

You keep saying it's an unprovable accusation because it's he said/she said. First, that's not true. Cases are proven all the time based upon the testimony of the witnesses and who a jury finds more credible. Secondly, again, this isn't a criminal proceeding. It's a job interview.

Your swiftboating accusation is absurd. Again, she already talked about this incident before she had a motive AND she passed a lie detector test (which I can tell you, unless you're trained or a sociopath, are incredibly reliable). So, there is much more meat to these accusations than you care to admit. Sure, the dems are using this for political fodder. But, make no mistake what conservatives like yourself and Republicans are doing - it is the same thing they did when they voted for Trump - they are selling their soul for the glimmer of hope of getting Roe v. Wade overturned. The truth is, even if Kavanaugh came out tomorrow and said the accusations are true...I was a drunk 17 year old kid and I'm sorry. They would still rush to put him on the highest court in the land just to get "their guy" appointed.

Personally, I think Trump should withdraw his nomination and immediately nominate whoever is no. 2 on his list. Assuming there's nothing like this in his/her past, all the people on the short list were qualified and they will be confirmed before Jan 1. It's the right thing to do, and the Pubs still get their fifth conservative on the bench.

Good post, a quick preface. I don't think she is swift boating anyone, I think the Democratic Senators are. I think in all likelihood she had an experience with some memory of it, and is trying to piece together her past. Why this information was relayed to Senator Feinstein is clearly political on her part, but it doesn't mean she is trying to make something up. It doesn't preclude her being dishonest, but I tend to assume that she is basing this on some level of experienced truth.

You assume that she was at marital counseling because of a sexual assualt 30 years prior. That is a giant leap in logic. She could have been at marital counseling for any number of reasons. Why did she bring it up? I don't know, probably because she had some sort of experience in the past that tends to be uncovered in counseling. This doesn't mean that the incident was the cause of her problems. Again - that is an assumption based on very limited evidence.

With regards to a criminal trial - that is exactly what she and the Democratic Senators are calling for. They are clamoring for a FBI investigation. I am glad that you agree that the Democrats are capitalizing on this situation, and no it doesn't make it any less untrue or true. Again, we have an accusation by a single witness that is not corroborated by any further evidence for the remainder of Kavanaugh's life. In fact quite the opposite has occurred since the allegation was made. Numerous women have stood up and denied that the Kavanaugh they have known for decades would commit this kind of act. They know him to be respectful, fair, and kind to women. Again - in the court of public opinion (which we both agree is all this about) the evidence swings heavily towards Kavanaugh's proper treatment of other people, particularly women.

Your next point is to attempt to make it a personalized situation. If my 50 year old daughter came to me and told me that when she was 15 a boy had been sexually aggressive towards her I would be the best support I could possibly be to her. If she decided to go public, I would back her 100% and scream from the rooftops. But as her dad, I am not an unbiased observer. I am not asked to make a judgement call. If my 15 year old daughter came home and told me that I would call the police myself. Because there would be a case. There would be witnesses, there would be a chain of events, there would be physical evidence of potentially DNA, ripped clothes, etc... If my 50 year old daughter asked for my advice on what to do about it (after hearing about the incident for the first time) I would tell her to seek a Christian Counselor, and I would be there with her for whatever she needed, but that I wouldn't advise going public, because I don't think it is in your best interest.

The reality is that Dr. Ford is going through hell right now, and that is completely unfortunate. Preventing Kavanaugh from the Supreme Court will not help her healing process (in my opinion) and so as her father I would advise against it. If my daughter wanted to go public 35 years after it happened I would be standing next to her supporting her action simply because that is what dad's do, not because I thought the claim had any chance of being 'proven' right.

I don't think I am selling my soul for anything. I think we simply have no idea if her accusations are true or not. The accusation was from over 3 decades ago, there are no corroborating facts, the life that Kavanaugh has led as an adult does not line up with the accusation, and the accusation is being welded by a heavily motivated political opponent who intentionally politically timed the blow to cause the most damage. A completely unprovable accusation from 35 years ago with no physical evidence or corroborating witnesses should not sink anyone, man or woman, from their career aspirations.

I appreciate the candor and tone of your post, and even more appreciate your commitment to defending the defenseless in our society, but this certainly wouldn't stand in a courtroom, and it doesn't even come close to standing in the court of public opinion. It is simply being emotionally latched onto by liberals in a blind hope to sink Kavanaugh, pay back the Republicans for Garland (which I can completely understand) and hold on to the slim chance that they can turn the Senate in November, stalemate the selection process past the new year and then prevent Trump from selecting a 9th justice. This isn't about Kavanugh. This is about Trump, and I understand that passion, because I hate him too, but the assumptions that are made to make the argument against Kavanaugh are just too broad.
 
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