Secretary of State Romney?

[WakeandBake]

I honestly believe that Donald Trump had no interest in actually becoming President. I think he campaigned accordingly, and won in spite of it.

This.

I believe Pence is making all these decisions about Sessions etc. The fucking liberals were right all along. I've been tryig to tellyou people this, but you get all buthurt and call us elitists and then read Brietbart.

hold on to your hats, people. the rednecks have run the table and are getting ready to turn the country in to Alabama II

 

[birdman]

I honestly believe that Donald Trump had no interest in actually becoming President. I think he campaigned accordingly, and won in spite of it.

Yep, and now Pence is running the show and Donald has veto power.

 

[deacvision7]

Losers whine about what they don't think can get done. Winners go home and fuck Melania in the Oval Office

Desperate trolls post posts like this one quoted.

 

[DeacMan]

I'll give you that the entire Democratic establishment, and I guess the majority of the entertainment establishment, whatever that is, tried their best to stop him. But to suggest the entirety of the media and the GOP were in the bag for Hillary is fucking asinine. Again though, he did take enough jabs at the media to make himself into a victim. Played the media like a fiddle. And the GOP establishment too.

He destroyed the GOP. Sure some of them fell in line after it was over. But the carnage was vast. And the majority of the media were very clearly, and frankly appropriately, rooting against him.

 

[DeacMan]

Still doesn't answer my question. Why are these fine people whose voice you and your party are ostensibly championing working off of misinformation?

It would be good if you'd offer up something more concrete. Because it makes little sense to me that somehow this was all about GOP turnout. Trump destroyed the GOP in the primary. This is a guy who drove a lot of voters out of the election entirely. I lean right although I have voted democratic 3 times since 1988. I hate, fucking hate, Hillary Clinton. I'd have voted for my dog if she were the GOP candidate over Hillary. And I couldn't vote for Trump. And I know a lot of folks like me.

You keep claiming GOP voters are misinformed. But Trump didn't win because of GOP voters. Just look at a state like Wisconsin. Trump slightly out performed Romney in the cities (Democratic). He under performed him in the suburbs (Republican). And he vastly outperformed him in the 46 rural counties in the state. Obama and Romney split the vote in those counties 50/50. Trump won those counties by 19 percentage points. That's a shit ton of Democratic voters either staying home (which turnout does not support btw) or voting for Trump. Were they all misinformed in 2012? Why did they switch?

 

[WakeandBake]

It would be good if you'd offer up something more concrete. Because it makes little sense to me that somehow this was all about GOP turnout. Trump destroyed the GOP in the primary. This is a guy who drove a lot of voters out of the election entirely. I lean right although I have voted democratic 3 times since 1988. I hate, fucking hate, Hillary Clinton. I'd have voted for my dog if she were the GOP candidate over Hillary. And I couldn't vote for Trump. And I know a lot of folks like me.

You keep claiming GOP voters are misinformed. But Trump didn't win because of GOP voters. Just look at a state like Wisconsin. Trump slightly out performed Romney in the cities (Democratic). He under performed him in the suburbs (Republican). And he vastly outperformed him in the 46 rural counties in the state. Obama and Romney split the vote in those counties 50/50. Trump won those counties by 19 percentage points. That's a shit ton of Democratic voters either staying home (which turnout does not support btw) or voting for Trump. Were they all misinformed in 2012? Why did they switch?

I didn't say GOP voters, I said "average Americans" who feel the elitists talked down to them. You are supporting my point regarding the rural counties in Wisconsin. They were completely misinformed on Clinton and on most of the issues. Apparently, like yourself. Breitbart and other outlets of bullshit swayed these unentrenched voters after relentless barrages of over-hyperbole about email servers and other non-issues to where a) they cast a vote for the Orange asshole or b) stayed home with their otherwise dem vote. Nice work.

 

[tintinisahottie]

I'll give you that the entire Democratic establishment, and I guess the majority of the entertainment establishment, whatever that is, tried their best to stop him. But to suggest the entirety of the media and the GOP were in the bag for Hillary is fucking asinine. Again though, he did take enough jabs at the media to make himself into a victim. Played the media like a fiddle. And the GOP establishment too.

and you. And your liberal crew.

 

[Deacfreak07]

and you. And your liberal crew.

 

[DeacMan]

I didn't say GOP voters, I said "average Americans" who feel the elitists talked down to them. You are supporting my point regarding the rural counties in Wisconsin. They were completely misinformed on Clinton and on most of the issues. Apparently, like yourself. Breitbart and other outlets of bullshit swayed these unentrenched voters after relentless barrages of over-hyperbole about email servers and other non-issues to where a) they cast a vote for the Orange asshole or b) stayed home with their otherwise dem vote. Nice work.

OK. How, exactly, were they misinformed? Trump gave these voters a vision on free trade and globalization. Clinton? This person who takes millions for speaking engagements from big banks that promote globalization and won't reveal what she said in the speeches? Did Clinton speak out against free-trade. A google search turns up a bunch of articles about how her views on free-trade are "complicated" and ever changing. That's on her, not the voters. Her views on immigration? Ditto (and a far cry from her husband's 1995 state of the union speech). And turnout does not support your views on staying home, etc. Trump may or may not succeed (I think he'll fail), but if all you've got is these people are stupid, then you're in no different position than Clinton herself who called them "deplorable". Hint - insulting voters is not a good plan to get them to support you and your point of view (something the facts on the last election bear true). I can only say I hope for your sake the Democratic party doesn't take voters like these for granted again. Bernie Sanders said it best - he called it a "humiliation" and an "embarrassment" that the Democratic party ceded these working class voters to Trump. He apparently gets that they did listen to what the candidates had to say. I think Trump's views on free trade are dead wrong. And I have no easy answers for the real concerns of these voters. But we won't unring the bell of globalization. I no doubt would feel a lot different if I was a rural working class voter worried the local factory might move and destroy my local economy.

 

[WakeandBake]

OK. How, exactly, were they misinformed? Trump gave these voters a vision on free trade and globalization. Clinton? This person who takes millions for speaking engagements from big banks that promote globalization and won't reveal what she said in the speeches? Did Clinton speak out against free-trade. A google search turns up a bunch of articles about how her views on free-trade are "complicated" and ever changing. That's on her, not the voters. Her views on immigration? Ditto (and a far cry from her husband's 1995 state of the union speech). And turnout does not support your views on staying home, etc. Trump may or may not succeed (I think he'll fail), but if all you've got is these people are stupid, then you're in no different position than Clinton herself who called them "deplorable". Hint - insulting voters is not a good plan to get them to support you and your point of view (something the facts on the last election bear true). I can only say I hope for your sake the Democratic party doesn't take voters like these for granted again. Bernie Sanders said it best - he called it a "humiliation" and an "embarrassment" that the Democratic party ceded these working class voters to Trump. He apparently gets that they did listen to what the candidates had to say. I think Trump's views on free trade are dead wrong. And I have no easy answers for the real concerns of these voters. But we won't unring the bell of globalization. I no doubt would feel a lot different if I was a rural working class voter worried the local factory might move and destroy my local economy.

They're not stupid, per se, they were misinformed not on Hillary's trade or immigration stance, but on the stupid "crooked Hillary" low-ball email and CF bullshit - for which there were no crimes committed - by a truly crooked businessman playing on stoked fears of Muslims and Mexicans. In rural Wisconsin and Michigan, as you pointed out, she was not able to get Obama's numbers which IMO is due to a campaign of misinformation to suppress turnout and/or swing undecideds.

 

[DeacMan]

They're not stupid, per se, they were misinformed not on Hillary's trade or immigration stance, but on the stupid "crooked Hillary" low-ball email and CF bullshit - for which there were no crimes committed - by a truly crooked businessman playing on stoked fears of Muslims and Mexicans. In rural Wisconsin and Michigan, as you pointed out, she was not able to get Obama's numbers which IMO is due to a campaign of misinformation to suppress turnout and/or swing undecideds.

While I certainly appreciate you want to assert Clinton was not corrupt, that is just not a narrative most Americans believe. And while I "fucking hate" Hillary Clinton, I don't think you can assert this is all down to bad news reporting. It is a fact she took speaking fees from banks without disclosing the content of her speeches. It is a fact the Clinton foundation took donations from foreign governments and interests in direct contradiction to the pledge she made to the Obama administration when she agreed to be Secretary of State. It is a fact some of these governments have policies towards gays, women and Christians that run completely contrary to where America stands as a society at present. It is a fact she was placed under criminal investigation by the DOJ (via the FBI) for violating Federal laws relative to her email usage. It is a fact she stood before the American public at the United Nations and lied about, at a minimum, parts of said email scandal. It is a fact she did a poor job of outreach in many states - she didn't even visit Wisconsin during the general election cycle. No doubt parts of the press did all the could to amplify these issues, just like parts of the press did all the could to amplify Trump's very obvious warts. But these remain very much self inflicted wounds that Clinton put upon herself.

Suppressing turnout simply is not supported by the facts in these counties either. So you will need to rely upon the "or" in your statement and the notion Trump swung undecideds. That clearly happened. And I'm not sure I'd call them undecideds. I'd call them traditional democratic or democratic leaning voters who went for dems in past elections and went for Trump pretty darn hard this go around.

I would actually contend Trump would have won by MORE had he been a different (let's call it more humane) vessel for his populist economic message to these voters. Clinton was a really poor candidate and she did nothing to help herself with these voters.

 

[WakeandBake]

While I certainly appreciate you want to assert Clinton was not corrupt, that is just not a narrative most Americans believe

If you use the popular vote to tally "most Americans" this is inaccurate.

It is a fact she took speaking fees from banks without disclosing the content of her speeches.

This is not corruption.

It is a fact the Clinton foundation took donations from foreign governments and interests in direct contradiction to the pledge she made to the Obama administration when she agreed to be Secretary of State.

There was no crime committed here that I am aware of, this is manufactured corruption scandal ie misinformation.

It is a fact some of these governments have policies towards gays, women and Christians that run completely contrary to where America stands as a society at present.

This is fucking laughable as an example when you consider the alternative candidate whom they voted for.

It is a fact she was placed under criminal investigation by the DOJ (via the FBI) for violating Federal laws relative to her email usage.

Being placed under investigation does not equal a crime - and the FBI did not bring charges. More misinformation here, you are making my point.

t is a fact she stood before the American public at the United Nations and lied about, at a minimum, parts of said email scandal.

Fair enough.

It is a fact she did a poor job of outreach in many states - she didn't even visit Wisconsin during the general election cycle.

This is strategy, not proof of corruption.


You are making my point. Just throwing a shit-ton of accusations at her and insisting she is corrupt is not the same as her actually being corrupt. You "fucking hate" this woman for a bunch of conjecture. They got in your head, too.


She lacked charisma and charm and energy and passion and inspiration, I'll give you that.

 

[DeacMan]

If you use the popular vote to tally "most Americans" this is inaccurate.

DM - I AM NOT RELYING ON THE "POPULAR VOTE". I'M RELYING ON POLLING DATA. THE SAME POLLING DATA THAT SAYS 71% of AMERICAN VOTERS THOUGHT ON ELECTION DAY TRUMP LACKED THE TEMPERAMENT TO BE PRESIDENT. HE WON MORE THAN 29% OF THE VOTE.

This is not corruption.

DM - WE WILL JUST HAVE TO DISAGREE. AND GIVEN I SPEND A GOOD AMOUNT OF MY TIME WORKING WITH THE FOREIGN CORRUPT PRACTICES ACT FOR A LIVING, YOU'LL BE HARD PRESSED TO GET ME TO AGREE OTHERWISE. AND CLINTON APPARENTLY COULDN'T GET ENOUGH VOTERS TO EITHER.

There was no crime committed here that I am aware of, this is manufactured corruption scandal ie misinformation.

DM - SEE ABOVE.

This is fucking laughable as an example when you consider the alternative candidate whom they voted for.

DM - THAT'S YOUR OPINION. I PERSONALLY THINK THEY BOTH SUCK. BUT NONE OF THAT MATTERS.



Being placed under investigation does not equal a crime - and the FBI did not bring charges. More misinformation here, you are making my point.

DM - NOT BEING CHARGED WITH A CRIME IS NOT THE SAME THING AS HAVING COMMITTED A CRIME. IT WAS HER JOB TO CONVINCE THE PUBLIC WHAT SHE DID WAS O.K. SHE OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T DO ENOUGH. SEE MY FIRST RESPONSE.

Fair enough.



This is strategy, not proof of corruption.


You are making my point. Just throwing a shit-ton of accusations at her and insisting she is corrupt is not the same as her actually being corrupt. You "fucking hate" this woman for a bunch of conjecture. They got in your head, too.

DM - THEY DIDN'T GET IN MY HEAD. I'VE HATED HER FOR YEARS. THAT DATES BACK TO HER ASSERTION SHE COULD NOT RECALL WORKING ON A LEGAL FILE ON WHICH SHE BILLED OVER 500 HOURS IN AN 18 MOS. PERIOD. I'VE PRACTICED LAW FOR 20 YEARS. IF YOU TOLD ME I BILLED 500 HOURS TO ANY FILE IN MY CAREER I CAN GUARANTY YOU I'D RECALL THE MATTER. SO SHE IS EITHER UNFIT TO HOLD OFFICE OUT OF MENTAL INCAPACITY OR FULL OF SHIT. AND I KNOW SHE ISN'T DUMB.

She lacked charisma and charm and energy and passion and inspiration, I'll give you that.

DM - GOOD. GLAD WE CAN AGREE ON A COUPLE OF POINTS.

See above.

 

[WakeandBake]

To whom is she required to disclose the content of her speeches?

 

[DeacMan]

To whom is she required to disclose the content of her speeches?

Obviously no one. And failing to do this was a choice - perhaps a poor one.

 

[WakeandBake]

ok but you put your reply about corruption under my reply saying it wasn't corruption which referred to that accusation.

This is exactly what i am talking about. Misdirection, obfuscation, and misinformation to frame her as a raving criminal when she is not, and the choices she has made that ride the line of corruption or criminality are everyday life for Americans in business and government. One could put together a list longer than the one you made on myriad leaders of American government and business, past and present, who attained high office and were generally trusted by the public. That you and John Q. Public of bumfuck Wisconsin use it to "fucking hate" or distrust Clinton is wildly inconsistent, not to mention casting a vote for a man accused and sued numerous times (and settling) over defrauding average Americans and the government on the regular. It's mind-blowing.

 

[knowell]

ok but you put your reply about corruption under my reply saying it wasn't corruption which referred to that accusation.

This is exactly what i am talking about. Misdirection, obfuscation, and misinformation to frame her as a raving criminal when she is not, and the choices she has made that ride the line of corruption or criminality are everyday life for Americans in business and government. One could put together a list longer than the one you made on myriad leaders of American government and business, past and present, who attained high office and were generally trusted by the public. That you and John Q. Public of bumfuck Wisconsin use it to "fucking hate" or distrust Clinton is wildly inconsistent, not to mention casting a vote for a man accused and sued numerous times (and settling) over defrauding average Americans and the government on the regular. It's mind-blowing.

Hillary will be happy to know she still has the trust of one voter.

 

[DEACisGO]

Hillary will be happy to know she still has the trust of one voter.

don't forget the lady she saw hiking in the woods

 

[DeacMan]

ok but you put your reply about corruption under my reply saying it wasn't corruption which referred to that accusation.

This is exactly what i am talking about. Misdirection, obfuscation, and misinformation to frame her as a raving criminal when she is not, and the choices she has made that ride the line of corruption or criminality are everyday life for Americans in business and government. One could put together a list longer than the one you made on myriad leaders of American government and business, past and present, who attained high office and were generally trusted by the public. That you and John Q. Public of bumfuck Wisconsin use it to "fucking hate" or distrust Clinton is wildly inconsistent, not to mention casting a vote for a man accused and sued numerous times (and settling) over defrauding average Americans and the government on the regular. It's mind-blowing.

Do you work in the private sector? I ask in all sincerity. Because I know of no one who doesn't take issues of corruption and the law seriously. That isn't how people conduct themselves even devoid of legal penalties. And the legal penalties in this area are stiff. Trump is a chump. I get it. Despite my hatred of Hillary Clinton I couldn't vote for the man (and in my state that was tantamount to voting for Clinton). Clinton is a chump too. And debating which one is worse does not matter. They both sucked. Trump didn't insult a huge group of voters. He offered them a platform on which they felt their lives would improve. Clinton didn't even speak to these voters other than to insult them. She was just an epicly shitty candidate. Shitty enough that Donald Trump was able to beat her despite his own epic shitness. She has to be accountable for her own actions and her own campaign. If you want to keep maintaining she was robbed, so be it. It doesn't change the outcome or the fact she was a lousy candidate with very serious flaws.

 

[WakeandBake]

Do you work in the private sector? I ask in all sincerity. Because I know of no one who doesn't take issues of corruption and the law seriously. That isn't how people conduct themselves even devoid of legal penalties. And the legal penalties in this area are stiff. Trump is a chump. I get it. Despite my hatred of Hillary Clinton I couldn't vote for the man (and in my state that was tantamount to voting for Clinton). Clinton is a chump too. And debating which one is worse does not matter. They both sucked. Trump didn't insult a huge group of voters. He offered them a platform on which they felt their lives would improve. Clinton didn't even speak to these voters other than to insult them. She was just an epicly shitty candidate. Shitty enough that Donald Trump was able to beat her despite his own epic shitness. She has to be accountable for her own actions and her own campaign. If you want to keep maintaining she was robbed, so be it. It doesn't change the outcome or the fact she was a lousy candidate with very serious flaws.

Do you work in the private sector?

yes for 25 years.

I know of no one who doesn't take issues of corruption and the law seriously.

I take issues of corruption and the law seriously as well, I never stated otherwise.

That isn't how people conduct themselves even devoid of legal penalties.

Are you shitting me?

Trump didn't insult a huge group of voters.

are you fucking shitting me?

He offered them a platform on which they felt their lives would improve.

Not really, he bogey-manned the Muslims and Mexicans to stoke fear and anger, then he offered a lot of promises of 'great' and 'tremendous' things with little to no detail, on which he absolutely cannot and will not deliver.

Clinton didn't even speak to these voters other than to insult them

I disagree. She talked to them like grownups and missed the mark totally.

She was just an epicly shitty candidate. Shitty enough that Donald Trump was able to beat her despite his own epic shitness.

agreed

She has to be accountable for her own actions and her own campaign.

agreed

If you want to keep maintaining she was robbed, so be it.

I never said she was robbed, I said that she lost because "average Americans" fell for a bunch of ginned up hyperbole about her corruption, which you have still not proven.