The high cost of low teacher salaries

[Liquid Karma]

I think we could gut school mid-level administration, increase teacher salaries, recruit at a higher professional level, increase high school class sizes, and provide a much better education product than we're doing now much more efficiently. It wouldn't take much to make teaching positions year round and improve summer learning programs and teacher training during the summer.

One of the interesting findings out there about the racial achievement gap is that school helps bridge those gaps but the gaps widen during the summer.

We need to make the material more difficult as well if we are going to bring in higher level educators. No more dumbing down of the curriculum because we are afraid of someone failing.

 

[Dented]

The consulting firm McKinsey recently examined how we might attract and retain a talented teaching force. The study compared the treatment of teachers here and in the three countries that perform best on standardized tests: Finland, Singapore and South Korea.

I don't deny something needs to be done, but these sorts of comparisons drive me crazy. Finland and Singapore have a combined population smaller than many of our largest cities' metropolitan areas. And Finland and South Korea are ethnically homogenous. I'm a bit skeptical the kids in "inner city" Helsinki or Seoul are attending schools even remotely similar to those in LA or Chicago where de facto segregration still continues.

And they don't answer how we're supposed to increase pay to attract a more talented pool unless you think making teachers federal employees is a viable solution.

McKinsey also said that cell phones would never be anything more than a niche market. McKinsey also produced geniuses like Jeff Skilling.

 

[isledeac]

lol. 10/12 is not 3/4. Good try though. Try being a teacher for a day and see if they are paid a fair salary.

can i be a teacher for a day in the summer?

i am just messing around, i have a sister who is a teacher. she should make more, as should all teachers. and she is one of the "good" teachers, TFA, teaches in low income areas by choice, etc. but during the summer, she goes backpacking abroad, she does all kinds of things, and she is not working. there may be some teachers who need to use the summer to figure out what the hell they are doing the rest of the year, but i am not sure that is the rule. heck, i play basketball with some teachers where i have to literally sneak out of work at 6-7 pm to play, and they would rather start playing at 4:30. i am sure every profession has exceptions, but the teacher work life is not one i consider the most strenuous (and that is what i hear firsthand from teachers).

and i always thought that the number of school days per year was closer to 180 than 300.

 

[1976Deac]

isle, they got these things called weekends, Christmas Day, Thanksgiving Day, July 4th, that add up surprisingly...

 

[MBDeac08]

I think we could gut school mid-level administration, increase teacher salaries, recruit at a higher professional level, increase high school class sizes, and provide a much better education product than we're doing now much more efficiently. It wouldn't take much to make teaching positions year round and improve summer learning programs and teacher training during the summer.

One of the interesting findings out there about the racial achievement gap is that school helps bridge those gaps but the gaps widen during the summer.

Do you mean a graduating class or an actual class as in number of students in each room? Because if its the latter, that's a terrible decision depending on the level of students.

If you take AP, Honors level students, you can have bigger classes since most are capable of doing some independent work. But with regular level or lower level students a small class size with more individual attention is extremely important to management and student achievement.

 

[MBDeac08]

can i be a teacher for a day in the summer?

i am just messing around, i have a sister who is a teacher. she should make more, as should all teachers. and she is one of the "good" teachers, TFA, teaches in low income areas by choice, etc. but during the summer, she goes backpacking abroad, she does all kinds of things, and she is not working. there may be some teachers who need to use the summer to figure out what the hell they are doing the rest of the year, but i am not sure that is the rule. heck, i play basketball with some teachers where i have to literally sneak out of work at 6-7 pm to play, and they would rather start playing at 4:30. i am sure every profession has exceptions, but the teacher work life is not one i consider the most strenuous (and that is what i hear firsthand from teachers).

and i always thought that the number of school days per year was closer to 180 than 300.

I would be interested in seeing the lifestyles of the 60% of teachers who work extra jobs. I do know of one teacher in particular who has 3 kids and doesn't understand how to tell them no they cant have something. So she works an extra job to pay for stuff. Meanwhile there are others who save their money and are extremely frugal in what they spend money on and don't have an extra job.

I think being a teacher is more or less strenuous depending on where and when you teach. Right now, a alot of teachers are waiting to hear if they have a job next year, so its not a time to fuck anything up by being lazy. And if you are in a low performing school, you've got to be making some progress each year or things are going get dicey.

Fact is teachers are a dynamic group. I know some who are at school until 6 or 7 grading and planning papers or getting organized for the next day. Others are there until 10 or 11 each night coaching a sport for a few extra dollars. And others are gone as soon as the bell rings.

 

[MBDeac08]

We need to make the material more difficult as well if we are going to bring in higher level educators. No more dumbing down of the curriculum because we are afraid of someone failing.

This is true. US History curriculum is a joke in NC. If you take AP, you might get a challenge and some meat with each topic. Otherwise though its all very simple and boring. I student-taught at a low-performing school where it was discouraged to give writing assignments, even to AP students. Everything was about learning facts and preparing for the test.

 

[PhDeac]

Do you mean a graduating class or an actual class as in number of students in each room? Because if its the latter, that's a terrible decision depending on the level of students.

If you take AP, Honors level students, you can have bigger classes since most are capable of doing some independent work. But with regular level or lower level students a small class size with more individual attention is extremely important to management and student achievement.

First of all, the research on class size effects is pretty inconclusive once you get past early elementary.

Second, in order to pay teachers more, we're going to have to have fewer teachers, most likely better teachers who are more adept at teaching larger classes.

Third, once you make teachers more prestigious, the more part-time teachers' aids you can hire to assist in larger classes for high level kids and to assist students in lower-level courses.

 

[ColdHardFactsDeac]

To the teacher's aid points, there are not-for-profit institutions springing up all over the place to provide this service on the cheap, using those either right out of high school in a gap year, those taking a break from college, or even recent college graduates who want to gain a year or two of experience in something meaningful before moving on to something else. CityYear, which was founded by a couple of HBS grads Michael Brown and Alan Khazei, sprung up in Boston and is now a national organization, is one such example. Some of these organizations also provide significant administrative help, which would definitely help cut costs arising from mid-level administration. Overall, those types of organizations would make the shifts PH talks about reasonable pretty soon, if there is a concerted effort and willingness to do so.

 

[tos]

First of all, the research on class size effects is pretty inconclusive once you get past early elementary.

Second, in order to pay teachers more, we're going to have to have fewer teachers, most likely better teachers who are more adept at teaching larger classes.

Third, once you make teachers more prestigious, the more part-time teachers' aids you can hire to assist in larger classes for high level kids and to assist students in lower-level courses.

Of course, in our case there would have to be a vote to amend the state constitution. An attempt was made this past election and it lost.

 

[MBDeac08]

I know research is inconclusive on the effect, but ask teachers, administrators, students, etc. what they prefer and they will say smaller class sizes. Most prefer it because of the closer connection you can have with the students; there are thousands of students who need that extra individual attention to succeed. You lose a lot of that with larger classes. My opinion based on my experience and the attitudes of teacher with all ranges of experience. There are too many issues though to say that class size is a major factor, that's why research is inconclusive.

Regardless though of though, class sizes are going up as nearly every school in Winston Salem is cutting positions in every department. WSFC Schools have to cut 45 million in spending for next year.

 

[RJKarl]

MB if you are a single teacher here in OC, you can't own a home.

Hell, if you are a couple of teachers, have taught for 5-10 years each, you can't afford a basic home in the county in which you teach.

 

[tos]

I know research is inconclusive on the effect, but ask teachers, administrators, students, etc. what they prefer and they will say smaller class sizes. Most prefer it because of the closer connection you can have with the students; there are thousands of students who need that extra individual attention to succeed. You lose a lot of that with larger classes. My opinion based on my experience and the attitudes of teacher with all ranges of experience. There are too many issues though to say that class size is a major factor, that's why research is inconclusive.

Regardless though of though, class sizes are going up as nearly every school in Winston Salem is cutting positions in every department. WSFC Schools have to cut 45 million in spending for next year.

If you throw in variables like accomodations that have to be met on 504's and IEP's for mainstreamed students, as well as strategies for Limited English Proficient students, it's even more imperative.

 

[Deadbolt]

If you throw in variables like accomodations that have to be met on 504's and IEP's for mainstreamed students, as well as strategies for Limited English Proficient students, it's even more imperative.

Not to mention some of the other consequences of increasing classroom sizes. For example, many classrooms cannot physically support that many students. Many high schools are at 30-35 students per class now. You bump that up to 40 or more and there are going to be severe issues with overcrowding, which will lead to a whole slew of new issues (poor test scores, misbehavior, etc.).

As mentioned, large class sizes are okay for college, but K-12 it's a terrible idea.

 

[DirkTheDeac]

Not to mention some of the other consequences of increasing classroom sizes. For example, many classrooms cannot physically support that many students. Many high schools are at 30-35 students per class now. You bump that up to 40 or more and there are going to be severe issues with overcrowding, which will lead to a whole slew of new issues (poor test scores, misbehavior, etc.).

As mentioned, large class sizes are okay for college, but K-12 it's a terrible idea.

I couldn't agree more. The question is how to get there.

 

[Deacon923]

PH and I usually agree on education policy. Teachers need to be paid more. Right now most of the people we are hiring to teach our children are B students at D-level colleges. That needs to change. [hyperbole warning--->] The first thing I would do is fire every administrator with the word "coordinator" or "facilitator" in their job title and put that money into teachers. The second thing I would do is fire most of the people with "vice" in their job title and put that money into teachers too. [end hyperbole, point made]

There are WAY too many people in our schools whose jobs revolve around pushing paper, writing reports, telling college-trained teachers how to do their jobs, and generally avoiding responsibility and covering their own asses.

 

[MBDeac08]

There are WAY too many people in our schools whose jobs revolve around pushing paper, writing reports, telling college-trained teachers how to do their jobs, and generally avoiding responsibility and covering their own asses.

Truth. I'm subbing right now until a full time job opens up (lulz, long wait) and there always seems to be an army of secretaries in the office each morning and afternoon. I'm sure they all do stuff and they are all always very nice, but how many are really necessary? I guess we will find out next year.

 

[PhDeac]

You all make it seem like I think class sizes are part of the solution. The opposite. I think they're a consequence. If we have to choose between all the sacrifices we'll have to make, I'll take increasing class size with aids over spreading out teachers and paying them less.

 

[MBDeac08]

MB if you are a single teacher here in OC, you can't own a home.

Hell, if you are a couple of teachers, have taught for 5-10 years each, you can't afford a basic home in the county in which you teach.

I'm not real sure what your point is, but here it goes. I realize in NC teachers have it better than other places. Right now, my wife and I are paying our mortgage on her teacher salary alone, with me finishing school and suplementing iwth some sub pay. We can't save money right now and are barely breaking even, but our house payments are cheaper than what we would be paying in rent for an apartment.

No matter how bad it is somewhere else, it can still be better where I live and I'm not going to be happy with my situation knowing that someone else has it worse.

If thats not your point, I apologize for the rant.

 

[MBDeac08]

You all make it seem like I think class sizes are part of the solution. The opposite. I think they're a consequence. If we have to choose between all the sacrifices we'll have to make, I'll take increasing class size with aids over spreading out teachers and paying them less.

They are a consequence, I agree. But what some of use are syaing is it is a consequence that needs to be avoided, for reasons stated above. May not be possible right now to do so, obviously.