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Trump Pays Porn Stars Hush Money

Junebug said:
Do you feel bad when you see a bird die? How about if you happen to kill one, knowingly or unkowingly?
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If I come across an injured bird or have some other situation where I am alleviating suffering, I’d have no problem killing the bird. But, Ph is right, we are really talking about eggs here. I had eggs for breakfast, if that answers your question.
 
Stick to insects, Junebug.
 
Junebug said:
By your answer, may I infer that you would feel bad if the bird wasn’t injured? Would you say it is unethical to kill a bird without cause?
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Sure, but who gets to decide what constitutes “cause”. Most conscious abortions are done with what the aborter thinks is just cause. Parent birds abandon their nests all the time because of perceived dangers from predators or lack of food resources. There is a whole realm of behavioral ecology called parent offspring conflict which studies the trade offs between self care and meeting the demands of offspring. It’s fascinating stuff. The vast majority of aborted human fetuses in the US are done because the mother is in inadequate financial or emotional (etc.) state to support a child. They perceive some inability to adequately invest time energy and money in a child so they choose to end the pregnancy. Sometimes the body does this unconsciously and sometimes the conscious mind has to assess the situation, evaluate the trade offs and make a decision. There is just cause in there somewhere but it’s made far more difficult by the culture we’ve developed surrounding the decision.
 
Junebug, you’re out of your depth with this comparison. Move on.
 
Junebug said:
You thought the eggs you buy at a grocery store were fertilized and I’m the one out of my depth?

I see. Tell me more about your views.
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you clearly did not specify the eggs as store-bought in your original comparison.
 
just pointing out the facts. it's not our fault you don't understand how eggs work
 
Junebug said:
You are talking about whether the cause is just. That’s a fine discussion to have, but I am simply trying to ascertain whether you think a fetus is something whose existence has some sort of value that should be weighed against the mother’s interest, whatever that may be.

It sounds like you think a bird’s life has that value. Does a human fetus?
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I don’t think it is my job to say whether any given fetus has value or not.

All your doing JB by asking this series of questions I s articulating the cultural norms that I said exist in the first place. We’ve created this cultural aversion to something that is natural and happens in human biology, and in many other animals, all the time.
 
birdman said:
I don’t think it is my job to say whether any given fetus has value or not.

All your doing JB by asking this series of questions I s articulating the cultural norms that I said exist in the first place. We’ve created this cultural aversion to something that is natural and happens in human biology, and in many other animals, all the time.
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I’m not on JB’s side of this argument in general, but there are all kinds of things that happen in nature that we have aversions to. Like dogs eating their own poop, lions ripping out the throat of gazelles, boas squeezing the life out of muskrats, etc. Saying that it’s natural is not much of a defense.
 
Rafi said:
I’m not on JB’s side of this argument in general, but there are all kinds of things that happen in nature that we have aversions to. Like dogs eating their own poop, lions ripping out the throat of gazelles, boas squeezing the life out of muskrats, etc. Saying that it’s natural is not much of a defense.
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That’s an incorrect characterization of what I said and the examples you gave are not analogous. The point is, if you read my previous posts, that woman have abortions all the time with out thinking about it, we call them miscarriages and we don’t frown on those. When the conscious mind is involved in choosing to have a miscarriage, for reasons that the endocrine system cannot perceive, we call it an abortion and we stigmatize it. It’s a cultural fabrication
 
Junebug said:
People die all the time from natural causes. Is murder a cultural fabrication?
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To elaborate, it has to be a cultural fabrication because some types of murder are deemed ok and some are not and which types of murder are deemed acceptable have changed over time and space. We have a whole thread on the sports board where posters are taking turns justifying and condemning our assistant basketball coach for killing a guy in NYC. Self defense murders are usually ok, soldiers killing each other on the battle is ok but the acceptable methods of battle field killing has changed over time. In some cultures honor killing a slutty disobedient daughter is ok in other cultures that is consider acceptable justification for murder, in some societies honor killing was fine 100 years ago and now the practice is looked upon as barbaric. It varies in space and time among and within societies which makes it a cultural fabrication.
 
Junebug said:
People die all the time from natural causes. Is murder a cultural fabrication?
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death may not be, but murder absolutely is

i'm not sure that there is much murder elsewhere in the animal kingdom
 
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