Unions

[WakeandBake]

Someone explain to me again why it is that I am supposed to hate and want to bust up unions. Wasn't this country built and made into the world's greatest superpower by unionized workers?

 

[BillBrasky]

Posted this on the Scott Walker thread:

The thing I hate about unions, especially state-employee ones, is that it forces members of a government funded occupation to give money to a certain political party. So if you want to be a teacher, you have to donate money to the Democratic Party. You have no choice. That does not pass the smell test to me.

Also the whole push to eliminate secret ballot voting when it comes to unionization of private workforces destroys any belief I have in unions as a whole. Its just another action that makes them appear shady as fuck.

 

[Go]

They also protect ridiculous pension plans in the public sector that are so bloated and ridiculous that they are bankrupting our States and they protect shitty teachers and workers making it damn near impossible to fire anyone.

 

[PhDeac]

Part of the error necessary to protect good teachers and workers is protecting a few of the crappy ones.

Anyway, the hostility isn't just to public unions, it's unions in general.

 

[TuffaloDeac10]

They won and ran out of actual workplace injustices to fight, for the most part. Or places with workplace injustice moved overseas.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

maybe it's the absurd benefit packages they secured in the middle part of the century that ended up killing american industry. boomers still place a ton of blame on them for that (rightly so).

they have their uses.

 

[WakeandBake]

American industry is dead?

 

[RicoSuave]

Hows Detroit doing? (I guess the better question would be how Detroit would be doing without the infusion of Federal bailout money?)

 

[Go]

The idea of a Union is novel and worthwhile.

Its just time for them to streamline and refocus, instead of padding their own coffers and being an arm of the Democratic Party.

 

[WakeandBake]

So unions killed American business and bankrupted the states? Wow.

So we would have been better off as a nation if we worked for pennies a day like the Chinese and Mexicans? Is that what we should have done?

So the unions have kept management and the investment class poor and struggling all these years?

 

[TheTwinAndreBen]

Unions are like Communism. It sounds like it might be a great idea in philosophy class, but in practice its fucking awful due to the innate corruption of humanity.

 

[TheTwinAndreBen]

So unions killed American business and bankrupted the states? Wow.

So we would have been better off as a nation if we worked for pennies a day like the Chinese and Mexicans? Is that what we should have done?

So the unions have kept management and the investment class poor and struggling all these years?

Worker protection legislation can exist without unions.

 

[PhDeac]

Worker protection legislation can exist without unions.

It could, but without union money corporations will throw their money toward Republicans who won't back it.

 

[WakeandBake]

It could, but without union money corporations will throw their money toward Republicans who won't back it.

This. Management inherently wants to maximize profit, and the Republican party is the management party. It cuts both ways. Cutting labor costs maximizes profits for owners/shareholders.

When exactly did unions drive ownership/management into the poor house?

 

[Deacon923]

Someone explain to me again why it is that I am supposed to hate and want to bust up unions. Wasn't this country built and made into the world's greatest superpower by unionized workers?

I am a libertarian/fiscal conservative type who doesn't "hate" unions. I think a most of the industries that have unionized labor deserve it because of a history of poor labor practices, although in the US worker protection and minimum wage laws have removed some of the original rationale. I think a union with good, realistic leadership can be an effective partner in a well-run business.

Most of the problems conservatives blame on unions were created not solely by unions. Although unions certainly bear part of the responsibility for unaffordable pensions and inflexible work rules, they didn't enact these things by themselves. Some corporate executive or politician had to sign off on the other side of the deal. Often these executives or politicians were either ineffective negotiators or had improper, short-term motives (and sometimes corrupt motives) to sign off on deals that turned into nightmares long after the executive/politician collected his golden parachute/government pension and moved on.

I do think that mandatory union membership and "secret ballot" union voting are contrary to the liberty of the individual worker and should not be allowed. If an individual worker doesn't want to give part of his paycheck to the union, the union should not be able to exclude that worker from a job (but he shouldn't be part of the union-negotiated benefits structure, either).

All that said, I do have a particular problem with public sector unions, for four reasons.

1. It is OK for labor to negotiate with corporations for a share of the profits produced by their labor. But government employees are not producing any profits so there is nothing to share. Every dollar of increased pay or pension, and every wasted dollar caused by inefficient work rules, comes directly out the taxpayer's pocket.

2. If a corporate executive makes a bad labor deal (usually good in the short term for the executive, bad in the long term after he has retired), the corporation is punished by lowered stock price, may go out of business, and the deal can be restructured through bankruptcy. On the other hand, bad deals cut by one politician have to be paid for by the tax dollars of future generations - there is never an "out" by bankruptcy for state or federal government, and only extremely rarely for municipal governments. I don't think corporations (which are people, remember?) should be protected from their bad short term decisions, but the taxpayers do need to be protected from bad short term decisions by politicians.

3. Government should be about serving the taxpayer's needs in the most efficient and least expensive way possible. A teacher, county planner, revenue agent, etc. all are supposed to have a higher calling than maximizing their compensation at the expense of the taxpayer. If you don't like the idea that your compensation and job security may be subject to the whim of the electorate, don't work for the government. I don't have a problem with public sector workers banding together to form PACs or otherwise collectively work in the political process, but membership should not be mandatory.

4. Having politicians who are empowered to "negotiate" with government employees have a big conflict of interest when they accept donations from those employees. We should not restrict the employees from donating money (as long as not mandatory - see #3) because they have a free speech right to do so. My problem is with the politicians - they should not be allowed to trade my children's future for short term political gain. So let the teachers contribute money all they want, but their pay should be set in the political process, not in "negotiations" with the politicians they elect.

 

[TR1982]

So unions killed American business and bankrupted the states? Wow.

So we would have been better off as a nation if we worked for pennies a day like the Chinese and Mexicans? Is that what we should have done?

So the unions have kept management and the investment class poor and struggling all these years?

The All-China Federation of Trade Unions has more power than any union in the world. The problem with unions isn't the idea itself, it's corruption. The leaders of the ACFTU are perfectly willing to line their pockets and agree to government demands that promote industry growth rather than look out for the workers. The same is true, obviously to a much lesser degree, in some labor unions in the United States, especially those that have closed shop agreements. And in some cases the corporations are powerless to resist, because the unions have legal backing. The only leverage they have is to close down shop and outsource overseas.

 

[TheTwinAndreBen]

It could, but without union money corporations will throw their money toward Republicans who won't back it.

Which was very relevant in 1920. Not so much today.

This. Management inherently wants to maximize profit, and the Republican party is the management party. It cuts both ways. Cutting labor costs maximizes profits for owners/shareholders.

When exactly did unions drive ownership/management into the poor house?

A simple google search will show you in most of the largest fortune 500 bankruptcies, as well as analysis of dying municipalities and federal agencies, that bloated union negotiated pensions were a major cause in the downfall of those enterprises. (See: Airline industry, USPS)

 

[ChrisL68]

The problems with Unions is that they have become bureaucracies that protect their own interests to the exclusion of reason and that they rarely work together with management for the betterment of the company. I have a friend who works at UPS as a part time supervisor (non-Union) and the stories he tells me about the crap the union employees get away with and how it is the inmates running the asylum because the union people know they can't get fired.

That's the problems with unions.

 

[PhDeac]

"Which was very relevant in 1920. Not so much today."

How do you figure? Special interest money is as big an issue as it's ever been.

 

[Go]

The problems with Unions is that they have become bureaucracies that protect their own interests to the exclusion of reason and that they rarely work together with management for the betterment of the company. I have a friend who works at UPS as a part time supervisor (non-Union) and the stories he tells me about the crap the union employees get away with and how it is the inmates running the asylum because the union people know they can't get fired.

That's the problems with unions.

Damn well put by a leftie, major props.

I hope this answers your question WnB