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US News 2024 Rankings (Wake #47)

PhDeac said:
Which is why they count 0% now in a national rating but are still a plus for Wake.
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Ehh. There are a lot of variables that count in the US News rankings that have nothing to do with student education, but they're still in there (or were just added).
 
ralphkitleyrules said:
I don't live in the south anymore and the one thing I would say about a Wake degree is that it doesn't have the clout in other states that it may have in NC/SC
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This is one thing I've been mulling over too, but I could be wrong about this-- even with our top 30 ranking, did that even necessarily carry any national recognition? I grew up in North Carolina so I know we're seen as a big deal around here and I think that'll continue regardless of where we're ranked. Everyone back home mentions something about our academics when they ask where I go to school. But does someone in Colorado or Iowa know that, much less even know of Wake Forest?

Again, I could be wrong or just dramatizing this, but that's just been something that's been in the back of my mind.
 
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Rafi said:
Ehh. There are a lot of variables that count in the US News rankings that have nothing to do with student education, but they're still in there (or were just added).
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You can’t say large classes (especially based on average or median I assume) are worse. You can take having professors with a strong research record is slightly better but not worse. Big difference.
 
This got me thinking, if I was going to make undergrad college rankings, and I had access to accurate and reliable data, what would I include and how would I weigh each parameter? I'll go with:

Reputation from deans at other undergrad colleges 20%
Percent of class that is retained from year 1 to year 2 10% (graduating "on time" and being on track are really important)
Percent of class that graduates in 4 years 10%
Percent of class that graduates in 8 years 2% (not all students can graduate on time, so providing some credit for graduating kids with other circumstances should be considered)
Average debt after graduation 10%
Average amount paid per student for 4 years 10%
Average scores on MCAT/LSAT/GRE relative to their incoming SAT/ACT 3%
Acceptance rates for students applying to med/law/grad/business/etc schools 5%
No instances of lapsed accreditation 5% (accrediting bodies do a lot to assure good student experiences)
Average class size 10%
Student faculty ratio 5%
High school ranking 5%
SAT/ACT scores 5%
No instances of fake classes (this is a joke, but what the hell is UNC doing so high after 30+ years of fake classes...) 100%

Does that add up? I'm interested to see what others would rank.
 
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PhDeac said:
You can’t say large classes (especially based on average or median I assume) are worse. You can take having professors with a strong research record is slightly better but not worse. Big difference.
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Sorry, I don't think I follow what you're saying?

There is a lot of research on class size and educational effectiveness. I'm not aware of any research on faculty citations and teaching effectiveness.
 
spritethr said:
This is one thing I've been mulling over too, but I could be wrong about this-- even with our top 30 ranking, did that even necessarily carry any national recognition? I grew up in North Carolina so I know we're seen as a big deal around here and I think that'll continue regardless of where we're ranked. Everyone back home mentions something about our academics when they ask where I go to school. But does someone in Colorado or Iowa know that, much less even know of Wake Forest?

Again, I could be wrong or just dramatizing this, but that's just been something that's been in the back of my mind.
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does someone in every state know about WF? yes, of course.

Enrollment < Wake Forest University

bulletin.wfu.edu bulletin.wfu.edu
 
ralphkitleyrules said:
Class size is a help to some kids but not all kids will care about that. My daughter goes to a large state school and her upper level classes in her major are all small classes. Having small classes for liberal arts core classes like history and philosophy is nice but it isn't going to have a huge affect on anyone's college experience. Wake seems to think their education is somehow better than other schools based on things like class size but the world is moving toward actual data. There is nothing wrong with sticking to your beliefs if you are wake but USNWR has tons of weight with high school families. Pretending it doesn't is silly. I don't live in the south anymore and the one thing I would say about a Wake degree is that it doesn't have the clout in other states that it may have in NC/SC. And this isn't going to help. I also see the value of larger Alumni bases over small class sizes for my kids. I like Wake as much as the next alumni but no way I would want my kid to go to Wake over a solid state school even if tuition was the same. And I certainly wouldn't pay double or triple for a Wake education.
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To each his own, of course not every kid will care about every metric. But I don't quite follow your logic here. You impliedly accuse Wake of failing to acknowledge "actual data" (whatever you mean by that) but the "data" pretty overwhelmingly show that small class size = better educational outcomes.
 
And Wake has never had the same clout elsewhere that it does in NC. But you're absolutely right that the drop in rankings won't help that problem.
 
Goes back to my earlier point - some interviewer in Seattle has never heard of wake forest university so they look it up wow dang they’re top 30. Now the interviewer looks it up oh 47 huh that’s nice. And they got a shitty 3.4 gpa, pass
 
I think I only had one class with more than 50 people (Astronomy) at Wake undergrad. I believed small class size was a plus because that is something that you hear so much it becomes fact. Then I had multiple classes of 50+ people in law and graduate school courses. My own opinion is that class size was completely irrelevant to what I got out of the course. A good teacher can command a 100 person class and make it worthwhile and keep folks engaged, while a bad teacher can make a 15 person class seem like the pits of hell. I don’t have any real issue with US News removing that as a factor in scoring.

I’m far enough along in my career that my undergraduate degree and Wake’s ranking are irrelevant for me, as far as rankings go. I think it’s a mistake for Wake administrators (Wente) to take the approach that it’s no big deal. For something as big and expensive as college purchases, where there is always imperfect information and 18 year olds are really guessing about what’s best for them, falling this far is bad for WF’s future. The fact is rankings matter and this is far and away the most prominent ranking list for colleges. We can’t credibly tout it when it’s good and say it’s no big deal when it’s bad. It seems like we’re finally being squeezed for being a tweener… not really a national university but not really a liberal arts college either.
 
Arsene Wenger said:
It seems like we’re finally being squeezed for being a tweener… not really a national university but not really a liberal arts college either.
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I agree with this. It’s been Wake’s reputation and agenda to have the personalized undergraduate classroom experience of a small liberal arts college, while also providing the opportunities and benefits of large research university. Small Big Tall, right? It’s just now, in competing with large research universities, we are being penalized for not actually being one. That’s tough. It feels as if the niche we tried to create is kinda being taken away from us.
 
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There is a large body of research that supports smaller class size creates better educational outcomes. It's not just people saying it. While there are also some newer studies that argue less or no impact, its not like USNWR is citing research when they dropped the class size factor.
 
Good posts by Arsene and MDMH.
 
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