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VOTE AGAINST

keeper said:
I wouldn't say that to an Obama campaign worker asking for my vote. I would simply say no thank you. I hope you weren't wearing any Wake Forest gear when you said it.
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You have to be careful what you say to Obama supporters. I hear they cut a "B" in a woman's cheek last election!
 
RChildress107 said:
If I say I think heterosexual marriages should not have special rights that gay marriages don't have and also say that I believe homosexuality is immoral I am still labeled a bigot.
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Why do you think homosexuality is immoral anyway? I understand "religious convictions" as a broad answer, but what specifically do you find immoral about it and where exactly is this opinion derived from (actual citation or quotes)?
 
RChildress107 said:
RJ once again it was an honest question. I'll take your word for it that research has shown this to be the case. 923 and Legendz have done you a huge favor by coming in and making the arguments you failed to make on this thread.

923, that was a great post. I do have a couple of questions though.

1. You say that society as a whole has made the judgement that incestous relationships, even those that are same sex, are likely to involve the victimization of one party. To me that involves a non-consensual relationship and thus falls in the same category as pedophilia. I wasn't really talking about non-consensual relationships and was talking more about a hypothetical consensual relationship between two brothers. You seem to be saying that research shows this doesn't exist. I would still assert that many would view that hypothetical relationship as immoral and that moral judgement would be the same as a moral judgement against homosexual relationships.

2. It seems that the arguments against incestual marriage center directly around incestual sex. This seems to imply that sex is central to marriage, at least in the case of incest. It seems that arguments surrounding gay marriage seem to downplay the centrality of sex to marriage. Would be interested to get your comments as to why this is.
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As to #1, you are the one setting up the straw man of the adult homosexual brothers, not me. I have never even heard of such a thing occurring and I seriously doubt there is any research on it. I have heard of adult incestuous relationships between parents and children and very rarely between different-sex siblings, and in most of those cases there is a father or brother victimizing a female.

As to #2, I am not sure I understand your question. Who is downplaying what? Certainly those who oppose same-sex marriage do so primarily on the grounds that they don't like the way these people have sex.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Why do you think homosexuality is immoral anyway? I understand "religious convictions" as a broad answer, but what specifically do you find immoral about it and where exactly is this opinion derived from (actual citation or quotes)?
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I have been wondering the same thing.
 
keeper said:
I wouldn't say that to an Obama campaign worker asking for my vote. I would simply say no thank you. I hope you weren't wearing any Wake Forest gear when you said it.
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I am speaking to defend marriage, to defend religious freedom and fight bigotry and intolerance. I am defending the American way of life in protecting the minority from the tyranny of injustice, so to you Keeper, I repeat "OH HELL NO"
 
DieHardDeacon said:
I am speaking to defend marriage, to defend religious freedom and fight bigotry and intolerance. I am defending the American way of life in protecting the minority from the tyranny of injustice, so to you Keeper, I repeat "OH HELL NO"
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Actually it is lower case k, please.
 
RChildress107 said:
also 923, you talked a little about the "ick" level regarding these different types of relationships. I think you did a great job of inserting victimization as a legally relevant difference between these types of relationships. I recognize this difference and my views on the legality of these different types of relationships is in line with this difference as I have stated several times on this thread.

However, I think most people on this thread and in general focus on the "ick" level in regards to this issue. If I say I think heterosexual marriages should not have special rights that gay marriages don't have and also say that I believe homosexuality is immoral I am still labeled a bigot.
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That's pretty easy. If you say whites should not have rights blacks don't have, but you also say you believe the condition of being born black is immoral or inferior, you would be labelled a bigot. People who feel that homosexuality is "immoral" don't like to hear that their views make them bigoted, and they certainly don't want the government telling them they can't act on those views. Having an irrational dislike or disapproval of an entire group of people because of something those people can neither choose nor change is bigoted. It does not matter if your preacher or holy book tells you its OK. Southern whites in 1950 felt just as strongly that interracial marriage was immoral, their preachers and holy books told them it was immoral, and apparently in Mississippi a whole bunch of them still do. We call those people bigots.

There are plenty of very serious religious people who take their beliefs seriously and think that in order to go to Heaven they have to believe that homosexuality is a sin. I am a Christian who disagrees with this interpretation and belief system, but I can at least respect the fact that they have a belief system. I don't think they should be allowed to use the government to impose their belief system on me or the committed gay couples and their children who attend my church. I have less empathy with the people who don't really go to church, and have no significant intellectual engagement with their opinions, but just don't want to be around gay people because they consider gay people to be weird, icky, or unusual.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Why do you think homosexuality is immoral anyway? I understand "religious convictions" as a broad answer, but what specifically do you find immoral about it and where exactly is this opinion derived from (actual citation or quotes)?
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I'm also curious about this
 
Can gay people who engage in homosexual sex go to heaven?
 
RChildress107 said:
I don't think being born with the condition of homosexual preferences is immoral. I believe homosexual acts are immoral. One is clearly a choice while the other is not. Being born with homicidal predispositions doesn't make you immoral, killing someone does. Being born as a pedophile doesn't make you immoral, practicing it does. I am not comparing the "wrongness" of these three things but merely pointing out the difference between biological traits and actions. Sorry for not making that distinction clear in my post.

I don't think I have to believe homosexual acts are a sin to go to heaven. I don't even think you have to be heterosexual to go to Heaven. Either way it doesn't matter what I think since I don't get to make the decision. I also don't mind being around gay people. I think their sexual behavior is immoral but I'm not around it when it happens so I'm not sure why i would have a problem being around or being friends with gay people.
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Southern whites in 1950 might have said that being attracted to the other race isn't immoral, but acting on that attraction is.
 
RChildress107 said:
It also stems from my beliefs about the purpose sex should have in a monogamous relationship and that only sex between a male and female can fully acheive that purpose.
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I take this to mean that the only purpose sex should serve is for procreation, is that correct?
 
I'm pretty sure it says that if a man has sex with another man they should be killed. Also in that passage IIRC is that having sex with a woman during her period is cause for banishment from society. Cursing your parents also calls for death.

I'm positive that each of these three things are equally as respected by anyone who stipulates that they believe homosexuality is immoral. If you believe this, it is only logical that you should also believe they should be killed correct? Or am I misinterpreting the text?

ETA: I'm not trying to patronize anyone, I'm just curious as to how and what commonly gets cherry picked within modern society from an ancient text.
 
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