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Wake Football Summer Thread

Wake Football Summer Thread - Scrimmage #2

When was the last time we had a really good O-line? I get more excited about o-line recruits than any other (even QB). Right now, I would rather have a 5 star offensive lineman than a 5 star QB.

2002 (Seattle Bowl)?
2006 was pretty damn good but got exposed vs Louisville.

And to your last point... absolutely. All day every day IMO.
 
When was the last time we had a really good O-line? I get more excited about o-line recruits than any other (even QB). Right now, I would rather have a 5 star offensive lineman than a 5 star QB.

Reminds me of how much PT Q.Boulware would have had this year.
 
Under Grobe, it's been my understanding that our "strength program" was completely unconventional. It was focused on core strength and flexibility and eschewed traditional lifting like the bench press. This apparently served Grobe well prior to Wake because his players were cut blocking option system guys who relied on speed and technique rather than raw strength. The Grobe was notoriously forced to abandon cut blocking, and began recruiting the bigger "file cabinets on wheels" (as he and Lobo called them) needed for the new zone blocking scheme. However, he kept the existing strength regime in place that still didn't focus on traditional strength training. Combined with sub par recruiting, these players never developed the strength needed to block effectively, leading Clawson to say that when he got here our players were the weakest he'd ever had *at any level he'd coached*. We are now basically starting over with a fresh crop of OL being trained in a more conventional strength program.

In this regard, don't forget the notorious Orlebar brothers who were linemen at Wake and transferred to App State as soon as they learned what Grobe's strength training entailed -- or what it didn't entail. In hindsight, those guys were probably right on the money.

That's the view I've been coming around to lately, and we'll see how our OL progresses under Clawson to see if we actually become more effective blockers than under Grobe and his legacy.

This is pretty accurate.

Grobe had essentially resigned himself to recruiting smaller, more athletic offensive linemen and tried to scheme zone blocking for the latter half of his tenure at Wake. About 40 plays a game you'd see the Veer technique from the OL. It works with any number of backs and a ton of formations and is meant to try and counter against mismatches on the DL (which we had a lot of against big defensive lines at Clemson, Florida State, etc.). It can work really well with small backs and misdirection plays, which you saw a lot of in 2006-7. This is where cut blocking can be very beneficial. Where this starts to fall apart is if you don't have skilled enough guys. Technique is everything in zone blocking, and the years that Lobo was in charge of the OL, you saw so many mistakes in simple fucking shit with blocking schemes, it was clear the recruiting started to fall off.

I don't know if Clawson wants to use zone blocking at Wake or not, but it has kinda made sense with the personnel he's had to work with. If he's able to get smart, talented guys in to the system, size won't matter as much again, and we can get back to some sophisticated and more complex play calling on offense.
 
Given that none of our DBs are likely to be a 1st round pick, I think there is reason to expect our D won't be as good this year as it was last.

You don't think Thomas Brown has a chance to develop into a good nfl caliber player? I do.
 
You don't think Thomas Brown has a chance to develop into a good nfl caliber player? I do.

A "NFL caliber player? and "1st round pick" are not the same thing. Merrill Noel was a "NFL quality player." He helped Wake out a ton. There is a pretty large gap between him and Kevin Johnson, however.
 
BC has a long successful history of BIG and GOOD linemen that has overlapped several coaching staffs. They seem to find them in Mass. and Ohio in particular and often are of Polish and/or Italian heritage....dunno why that is.

This pretty much nails it. BC's had good OL play for a very long time, it even predates O'Brien. I'll always believe the reason why O'Brien left BC for State was because he didn't get along with an egotistical AD. A school like BC was perfect for O'Brien and the type of kid that he recruited. O'Brien was unable to bring over the St. Xavier (OH) (which was his alma mater. That pipeline stayed with BC. They're still landing kids from St. Xavier to this day) and Don Bosco (NJ) pipeline with him to State.
 
A "NFL caliber player? and "1st round pick" are not the same thing. Merrill Noel was a "NFL quality player." He helped Wake out a ton. There is a pretty large gap between him and Kevin Johnson, however.

I think if Brown keeps his head on straight he has the potential to be a draft pick.
 
Someday someone will tell me why we moved from cut blocking, why they wouldn't let odom take the unc xfr Parker, and how we got buzz And how does skinner not go to a bowl game sr yr
 
Under Grobe, it's been my understanding that our "strength program" was completely unconventional. It was focused on core strength and flexibility and eschewed traditional lifting like the bench press. This apparently served Grobe well prior to Wake because his players were cut blocking option system guys who relied on speed and technique rather than raw strength. The Grobe was notoriously forced to abandon cut blocking, and began recruiting the bigger "file cabinets on wheels" (as he and Lobo called them) needed for the new zone blocking scheme. However, he kept the existing strength regime in place that still didn't focus on traditional strength training. Combined with sub par recruiting, these players never developed the strength needed to block effectively, leading Clawson to say that when he got here our players were the weakest he'd ever had *at any level he'd coached*. We are now basically starting over with a fresh crop of OL being trained in a more conventional strength program.

In this regard, don't forget the notorious Orlebar brothers who were linemen at Wake and transferred to App State as soon as they learned what Grobe's strength training entailed -- or what it didn't entail. In hindsight, those guys were probably right on the money.

That's the view I've been coming around to lately, and we'll see how our OL progresses under Clawson to see if we actually become more effective blockers than under Grobe and his legacy.

This is not true. i spent the better part of 7 years in the Manchester Center working out alongside the FB team a lot of the time and I am familiar with what they were doing. If anything it was a very conservative program. Not unconventional by any means. This board saw a YouTube of the O-line doing a dynamic warm up one time that involved tumbling and everyone shit their pants. Also, most of the time the strength program was a direct product of what came down from the coaching staff. The year escapes me but I believe it was after 2009 season the word came down from Grobe to make the O-line lighter. This was a mistake. Years later I think they tried to backtrack but I do not know this for sure.

All in all I love Clawson but a lot of this shitting on the former strength regime is covering his ass, managing expectations, and a product of having a different strength philosophy. Whether his different philosophy turns out to be better remains to be seen. My personal opinion is we had a talent and coaching issue under Grobe.
 
The strength program under Grobe almost exclusively featured traditional lifts. It did not emphasize raw strength though but favored a holistic approach to develop the best mix of functional athleticism. I think it's shortcomings was a lack of personalization to the athlete/position group.
 
The proof is in the pudding. Folks only have to look at the play of the OL on the field to see how un-strong they were, validating Clawson's statements.

And if the strength program wasn't unconventional, why did the Orlebars leave Wake due to the strength program?

When I was living in State College, PA, I went to a fitness program where the trainers attended Ethan Reeve's seminars at Wake and they were telling me how unconventional it was, and comparing Penn State's strength program unfavorably to Wake's. I believed it at the time because it was in 2006-07, but you only have to compare the effectiveness of the players on the field to judge the truth of the matter, allowing of course for the higher talent level of Penn State's players. I don't know anything about the program myself save for what I've heard from people I have no reason to doubt, including Clawson, and the actual product the Grobe program put on the field. Wake really never had the OL problems in the past that emerged as a chronic epidemic during the Grobe regime.
 
I love how two marginal talents like the Orlebars will always be remembered on the boards as the guys who criticized Ethan Reeve.

I feel like Reeve went from unconventional idiot to unconventional genius back to idiot as the talent level of our players vacillated.
 
I love how two marginal talents like the Orlebars will always be remembered on the boards as the guys who criticized Ethan Reeve.

I feel like Reeve went from unconventional idiot to unconventional genius back to idiot as the talent level of our players vacillated.

AIR, Reeve was to remain at Wake tending to other sports....is he still ?
 
The strength program under Grobe almost exclusively featured traditional lifts. It did not emphasize raw strength though but favored a holistic approach to develop the best mix of functional athleticism. I think it's shortcomings was a lack of personalization to the athlete/position group.

I think that is a good point, I'm not sure having your receivers and d-backs doing Olympic lifts was very beneficial. With that said, I'm sure there were other aspects of the program that were tailored to position groups however.
 
I love how two marginal talents like the Orlebars will always be remembered on the boards as the guys who criticized Ethan Reeve.

I feel like Reeve went from unconventional idiot to unconventional genius back to idiot as the talent level of our players vacillated.

Pretty much like Grobe.
 
Grobe told a Deacon Club meeting in Charlotte that he wanted the O-Line to lose weight before he had ever coached a game. He said that one of the players had a weight target of something like 30 pounds less by the beginning of the season. Unfortunately the player thought he had by the end of spring practice and was crash dieting.
 
Grobe told a Deacon Club meeting in Charlotte that he wanted the O-Line to lose weight before he had ever coached a game. He said that one of the players had a weight target of something like 30 pounds less by the beginning of the season. Unfortunately the player thought he had by the end of spring practice and was crash dieting.

Well at the time, they needed it. Remember the stories of how our players were throwing up against ECU the year before Grobe came. The difference in the physical shape of our team in Grobe's first year was evident and big key to early success. The comeback at Kenan in Grobe's first year was largely due to the fact that we wore their very good defensive front down due in part to our conditioning and also that we had really good depth up front due to Caldwell's good recruiting. I think what messed up the O-line was Grobe and staff's changing mindsets so much. He talked a lot about Riley kind of messing things up because when Mauk got hurt, Riley came in and it became apparent we needed pass blockers instead of smaller quicker blockers for option and misdirection stuff and then Riley left and we tried to go back to the other stuff, blah-blah. If your changing the kind of lineman you're trying to recruit every few years, you're never going to end up with the type of lineman you really need at the right time, since it takes couple years to develop those guys. That's why I'm fine with being a little bit more patient with Clawson and give him the time to get and develop players for the system he want's to play. I'm not for a coach that is so rigid in his system he's not open to implementing things to take advantage of the roster's strengths, especially at a school like Wake, but I think a coach also needs to have a general system in place and stick to it so he can always have an idea of the type of players he's looking for.
 
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